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Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
Steele
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:58 pm 
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Quote (clausewitz @ 17 May 2006 (12:30))
Damn... now I will need to order one of these behemoths! ? ?I can tell my wife that you guys told me too... right?

Absolutely, we will all sign the petition :D

I am in agreement with your summary, and I am glad its not going to be a skimmer!

Dito! Nothing to add here.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:09 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 17 May 2006 (09:59))
That said, I do think that the concept of a Manta Planetfall without space craft is a very good one, and in my mind would go a long way to addressing some issues with the unit.

One thing that needs to be discussed if this ship-less planetfall idea moves ahead is which order is used to deliver the Manta to the table as there is no current precendent for this.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:34 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 17 May 2006 (15:09))
Quote (CyberShadow @ 17 May 2006 (09:59))
That said, I do think that the concept of a Manta Planetfall without space craft is a very good one, and in my mind would go a long way to addressing some issues with the unit.

One thing that needs to be discussed if this ship-less planetfall idea moves ahead is which order is used to deliver the Manta to the table as there is no current precendent for this.

Actually there is one vessel with precident for shipless Planetfall. The Ork Drop Rok from the OGBM rules. Of course the 'how do you planetfall without a ship' question has been asked about THAT unit too. So yeah, it definitely needs some kind of at least informal rules about how it should work. You could always set them up on the table-edge and play them basically as space craft. By the same means, when you activate it to drop it, does that count as it's activation for the turn? Normal units planetfalling don't use up their action doing so. I'd assume that you'd activate the Manta, drop it, then it'd take it's action as normal, with the planetfall effectively being 'free', as that's the way default planetfall works, but do you think this would be too good (effectively letting the Tau player drop it down anywhere they want, so long as they know where they want it at setup!)
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Steele
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:48 pm 
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Planetfall itself grants you free choice of Dropzone. ( Of course you have to pre-plot first)

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Chroma
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:09 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 17 May 2006 (16:34))
Actually there is one vessel with precident for shipless Planetfall. The Ork Drop Rok from the OGBM rules. Of course the 'how do you planetfall without a ship' question has been asked about THAT unit too.

Yeah, I'm the one who asked that question too... *laugh*

And it wasn't answered there either.

Since you declare an action before you roll the Action Test, that means the Manta could select Sustained Fire, drop, and then let loose... that doesn't seem right to me.

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:45 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 17 May 2006 (16:34))
Actually there is one vessel with precident for shipless Planetfall. The Ork Drop Rok from the OGBM rules. Of course the 'how do you planetfall without a ship' question has been asked about THAT unit too.

Hmm...  So if it turns up in more than one list that means it's a core rules issue so we don't need a special rule in the Tau list which means we are not going to use up one of our 'slots' just for this...  :devil:

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:28 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 17 May 2006 (17:09))
Quote (Ilushia @ 17 May 2006 (16:34))
Actually there is one vessel with precident for shipless Planetfall. The Ork Drop Rok from the OGBM rules. Of course the 'how do you planetfall without a ship' question has been asked about THAT unit too.

Yeah, I'm the one who asked that question too... *laugh*

And it wasn't answered there either.

Since you declare an action before you roll the Action Test, that means the Manta could select Sustained Fire, drop, and then let loose... that doesn't seem right to me.

Um... the way we've been playing it, and i'm pretty sure the way PG intended, was that the turn is plotted as a spacecraft and the site is plotted as a normal planetfall.  I believe it's 2 activations - 1 to planetfall like you would have to with a spacecraft, and 1 to activate like you would have to do with any planetfalling unit.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:44 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 17 May 2006 (19:28))
Quote (Chroma @ 17 May 2006 (17:09))
Quote (Ilushia @ 17 May 2006 (16:34))
Actually there is one vessel with precident for shipless Planetfall. The Ork Drop Rok from the OGBM rules. Of course the 'how do you planetfall without a ship' question has been asked about THAT unit too.

Yeah, I'm the one who asked that question too... *laugh*

And it wasn't answered there either.

Since you declare an action before you roll the Action Test, that means the Manta could select Sustained Fire, drop, and then let loose... that doesn't seem right to me.

Um... the way we've been playing it, and i'm pretty sure the way PG intended, was that the turn is plotted as a spacecraft and the site is plotted as a normal planetfall. ?I believe it's 2 activations - 1 to planetfall like you would have to with a spacecraft, and 1 to activate like you would have to do with any planetfalling unit.

The real question here is, do you have to activate the unit specifically to planet-fall, or is the planet fall 'free' like it is when planet-falling from the ship? Essentially, does planet-falling for non-ship-based planetfallers consume their activation for the turn or not. I'd assume the location and turn would be recorded same as a normal starship, but does it cost the unit it's turn to do so (Normal planet-falling units don't lose their action for doing so).
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:54 pm 
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Bit of a side note, but can the Manta be deployed from reserve? Would you actually need to buy a ship to have it come on later? Sorry for the diversion...
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:56 am 
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Quote (Dobbsy @ 17 May 2006 (23:54))
Bit of a side note, but can the Manta be deployed from reserve? Would you actually need to buy a ship to have it come on later? Sorry for the diversion...

At present you have to buy the ship which is going to planetfall it to the ground. The conversation going on currently is over if you SHOULD have to or not. Would it make the Manta too good if you could drop it without a ship or not, basically.
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:26 am 
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but the THawk can deploy from reserve w/o a ship... can the Manta not too?
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:21 am 
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No, its not an aircraft. (The thunderhawk flys not drops on.)

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Honda
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:53 pm 
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No, its not an aircraft. (The thunderhawk flys not drops on.)


On the Thunderhawk, it can do both, can it not? A SM spacecraft can carry X number of Thunderhawks for Planetfall or the Thunderhawks can fly in.

Getting back to the Manta, I thought it could do both as well. Is that not correct?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:24 pm 
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Quote (Honda @ 18 May 2006 (18:53))

No, its not an aircraft. (The thunderhawk flys not drops on.)


On the Thunderhawk, it can do both, can it not? A SM spacecraft can carry X number of Thunderhawks for Planetfall or the Thunderhawks can fly in.

Getting back to the Manta, I thought it could do both as well. Is that not correct?

The Thunderhawk is an actual Aircraft, it moves as a, well, aircraft! Making attack runs on the board. The Manta, though, is a Support Craft... Much slower moving in game terms, more like a really humongous Skimmer which flies much higher in the sky. Unlike the Thunderhawk the Manta never has to leave the board and can never fail to 'show up'. On the other hand it CAN be  broken and fail to activate. Likewise the Manta is immune to flak, but can be fired on by normal attacks. I think it'd be neat to let the Support Crafts come into play like aircraft then be able to 'hang around' the board if they want to. Sortof like VTOL aircraft coming in and entering into hover (Or slow-movement in this case) mode in 40K. I'd assume that this might represent switching from full-throttle flight to anti-gravity mode. I dunno if that's remotely practical from a rules sense or not, and likely would make the Manta too good.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:16 am 
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Sorry I meant to say you can fly in instead of planetfalling with the thunderhawk, so it is availible later, whereas the manta can either be deployed or planetfall.

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