This may not sound relevant to the discussion but for quite some time I and several of my friends were involved in the creation of a balance mod for Dawn of War and one of the most difficult points was how to deal with Tau precisely because of the Mont'ka/Kayun ideology split.

Our conclusion was that these are simply ideologies that the Tau apply as needed which don't affect the units themselves and that instead of forcing one or the other upon the player we should instead allow the player to determine which path to choose as opportunity presented itself by providing simply the units free from the ideologies.

Personally I find that E&C's proposal allows for the application of these ideologies in a very Tau manner by focusing on the Tau technologies like markerlights that differentiate them from the rest of the 40k universe.

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-Vaaish

The biggest change is the Markerlight change.

However because of that change, many other aspects of the list have to change too, to keep it from immediately becoming overpowered.

With a bit of testing, units that underperform in my proposal can be put back to their original stats, if justified. I'm just a very cautious games designer when it comes to stats and points costs.

The reason I am asking all these questions is because it appears the 'logjam' is that some portion of the Tau players always seem to be disenfranchised.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Agreed, although of course rooted in 5.1, the special rule change makes the structure and stats of the units subject to change too.

The list structure is an additional change.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I understand that neither list was designed around the concept of Killing Blow or Patient Hunter, but if each seems inclined in that direction then that could be the foundation for working the two lists together.

Obviously there would have to be quite a bit effort to try to finesse the two together since the special rule for marker lights affects so much on the lists, but I do think it might be worth the effort to try.  In fact an attempt to push both lists to be more like the KB or PH types might be the justification needed to rework some of the stats.

This is all general concept stuff and it may not be possible - I just wanted to throw it out there in case Honda or CS or anyone thinks it has some merit.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I've been sitting on the fence with all this discussion of late. At first E&Cs proposal looked good because it was a bit of fresh air in design however after re-reading it along with discussing 5.1 with other players(and seeing that a couple of cool ideas are to be poo-poohed by Honda) I've really lost a lot of interest and haven't bothered contributing. Why bother when no one listens eh? I've been blue in the face (excuse the Tau pun) with this list for ages now so nothing has changed there right? Surely the problematic units in question being removed could at least show us where the list is at before we go off half-cocked designing a new list? I'm not attacking you here E&C, just lamenting the entire process that seems to tie us all up in knots with endless debate and squabbling. I'm not saying it will be the final design we go with just that here in Tau Land We Do Not Even Try Something First before every man and his dog gets involved with the endless debate cycle. So, I think I'll just have to wait to see what you guys hammer out (if you can) for now as the Tau list really has become the Olympic Rings list for me -circles within circles (of debate).

Now all that said I have one point to make - take it as you will.

It's interesting, that after all the brain power dedicated to these discussions, that so little time has been invested in simply trying 5.1 without AP GMs first (including removal of the Stingray and Scorpionfish)....

seeing that a couple of cool ideas are to be poo-poohed by Honda

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

This girl metaphor is getting entirely too awkward.

It's fun though.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I never use Stingrays and, I believe, I've only used a single Scorpionfish once, and it was destroyed almost immediately.  

I've made a conscious decision *NOT* to use Stingrays in my games, as I've never thought them necessary/appropriate, so, consider all my games tests of v5.1 without "AP Missiles".

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Not to be too insistent, please define "Tau army feel". The problem from an outside point of view is that all entries are from the perspective of the individual and his idea of 'how a Tau army should feel'. This being the case there will always be problems agreeing on any point because you have not agreed on a common frame of reference
You cannot choose the proper route to a place with out knowing the place you are going.
Perhaps more time should be spent on determining what exactly you want the Tau army to be in Epic. You know; doctrine, operational concept,etc.
If I could stamp my feet or send up a flare I would, everyone has good ideas and they will be even better when you define exactly how the army would operate in EPIC.
Bear

The Tau army should work like the intricate Japanese multiple-maneuver-unit strategies of years past.

Your army flows around the hard rocks of the opponent's line, and wears away at the weak points.  Only when the entire enemy's army has had it's soft, supporting rock worn away do the Tau hit a hard rock to push it over into the flow and to it's destruction.

Tau are more maneuverable than almost anyone else, they use this to achieve local superiority and shatter that point, then flow to the next point of attack.

Have you ever watched two people fence?  The feint, parry-and-riposte, always in motion along angles to the opponent is the best way to describe how the Tau should work (that's how I could make my 40k Tau work, but Epic hasn't been like that).

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"