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Considering Chroma
Chroma
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 07 Jan. 2009, 18:51 )

However, IF I want to field armor formations, I must pay for that privilege. I must either buy a crisis or FW cadre. Why? Does that obligation occur in other lists or are they able to buy armor formations separately, if they choose?

Thanks for the reply!

Some lists have this restriction, some don't.  Eldar and Cultists must buy "basic infantry" formations before they can get tank formations; Marines have limited armour options in their "basic" list; while Black Legion and Orks can take a fully effective "armour" force if they wish.

So, it depends!

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:59 pm 
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Space Marines can field a fully armour army if they which. But with 4 to 5 vehicles their formations are pretty small.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 07 Jan. 2009, 18:59 )

Space Marines can field a fully armour army if they which. But with 4 to 5 vehicles their formations are pretty small.

That's what I meant by "limited options"... I don't think a core Marine list armour force would do very well.

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Honda
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:01 pm 
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I don't think a core Marine list armour force would do very well.


However, if someone wanted to field the list that way, there is nothing preventing them from doing that. They just might be able to play it well. In all fairness, you are making a subjective judgement based on your perspective.

All I am asking for, is that there be no forced constraints on the core cadres. Let the list provide the flexibility that the Tau are known for by allowing someone to build the type of list they prefer to fight with, be that armor, armor heavy, infantry, or infantry heavy. Let the players decide.

The game will show the results of un-wise choices. Don't assume that everyone plays or wants to play the list the same way you do.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:06 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 07 Jan. 2009, 20:01 )

The game will show the results of un-wise choices. Don't assume that everyone plays or wants to play the list the same way you do.

Then why not make *everything* core?

Then I could do my Steath and Pathfinder Special Forces army... or my Kroot and Skyrays army... why limit the "core cadre" list to Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits, and Hammerheads?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 07 Jan. 2009, 20:01 )

However, if someone wanted to field the list that way, there is nothing preventing them from doing that. They just might be able to play it well. In all fairness, you are making a subjective judgement based on your perspective.

My "perspective" is that a single list doesn't have to do *everything*.

As to Marines, there's a *far* superior "armour-focused" list in Hena's "Scions of Iron" Marine Tank list... it *can't* be replicated with the "basic Marine" list... and that's a good thing as it's a very different list and a different kind of fun to play.

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vytzka
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Actually, there is a balance issue with an all-Hammerhead (or any other Tau tank list) that is not present in Steel Legion, Marine or Ork tank force.

They're all skimmers.
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Honda
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:19 pm 
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Then why not make *everything* core?

Then I could do my Steath and Pathfinder Special Forces army... or my Kroot and Skyrays army... why limit the "core cadre" list to Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits, and Hammerheads?


Ok, fair enough and point taken. I was thinking that with a core of Crisis, Infantry, or Armor, you had the basic building blocks to construct a wide range of lists.

Actually, there is a balance issue with an all-Hammerhead (or any other Tau tank list) that is not present in Steel Legion, Marine or Ork tank force.

They're all skimmers.

The same can be said for Eldar, who don't have to provide an opponent with soft targets that are foot sloggers.

I acknowledge your point, but don't see it as a serious issue.

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vytzka
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 07 Jan. 2009, 23:19 )

The same can be said for Eldar, who don't have to provide an opponent with soft targets that are foot sloggers.

I acknowledge your point, but don't see it as a serious issue.

Eldar can't do an all-tank force. They have to take core infantry units, those aren't that small so the resulting mechanized formations will be quite big and expensive, and the infantry carried inside will mean that every destroyed tank will cause slowdown and/or additional blast markers for killed passengers.

An all-skimmer, all-AV force simply ignores both antipersonal fire and close combat capabilities. At the very least, core tank formations should be significantly more expensive per unit than support formations.
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Honda
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:11 am 
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An all-skimmer, all-AV force simply ignores both antipersonal fire and close combat capabilities.


Ok, this is an opinion. You can FF the Tau to death. I know, I've been there many, many times, especially against well played Eldar. You don't have to CC a formation to kill it.

At the very least, core tank formations should be significantly more expensive per unit than support formations.

And I don't see anything wrong with that approach. Now what you are proposing is a mechanism for handling the formation. This is what I think we should be discussing.

Eldar can't do an all-tank force. They have to take core infantry units,

Again, point taken. I was looking at the fact that since you can take aspect warriors and mount them up in Falcons, that for all intents and purposes, they represent an all armored force. But I do see your point.




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shmitty
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:51 am 
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Chroma -

I had a thought today regarding Tau and FF values.  So, the idea of giving the Tau lower than expected values is to discourage the Tau from a certain playstyle, but in the end it doesn't quite feel right.  

So, why not just give the Tau a -1 to Initiative on an Engage order?

That way sending in a unit of Firewarriors that have a BM would be a tricky proposition, but those same FWs would be more than able to defend themselves in a FF unless brought into CC.  This would really give the Crisis Suit Cadres a unique role in the list with their 1+ Initiative making them the natural assaulters.  And I am pretty sure that is a role that they are described as having, going in for the decisive battle, etc.

Just a thought really, probably not even an original one.
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Shermo
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:01 am 
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I really don't see a problem in giving the core units (Crisis and FW) a higher FF value. It still makes Tau weaker than other races in assaults.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Quote: (shmitty @ 09 Jan. 2009, 06:51 )

So, why not just give the Tau a -1 to Initiative on an Engage order?

That's actually a pretty cool idea, shmitty, and I *don't* think it's been brought up before!

What do other people think of such a mod?

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Honda
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:16 pm 
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So, why not just give the Tau a -1 to Initiative on an Engage order?

That way sending in a unit of Firewarriors that have a BM would be a tricky proposition, but those same FWs would be more than able to defend themselves in a FF unless brought into CC.  This would really give the Crisis Suit Cadres a unique role in the list with their 1+ Initiative making them the natural assaulters.  And I am pretty sure that is a role that they are described as having, going in for the decisive battle, etc.


That's actually a pretty cool idea, shmitty, and I *don't* think it's been brought up before!

What do other people think of such a mod?


Actually, I think that is a brilliant idea and here's why. One of the biggest problems with the FW cadre is that the formations are not strong enough to do much of anything. Yes, they can shoot, but they aren't so strong in shooting that they have a chance of reducing any CC force enough to withstand a counter assault. This might give them a chance to do that. They also aren't that cheap.

So that would make them a much more attractive choice because now you aren't punished for placing the FW's on the ground, whereas in the past FW's just walk around with a "KILL ME" sign on them. Mentally, this has a nice feel to it and maybe it is one of the things that could break the log jam.

If others were comfortable with this, then we might be able to focus on sorting out the air caste stuff and get to play testing.

Other thoughts?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:43 pm 
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I like it as well. So FireWarriors remain supreme at Firefights but still wouldn't get too close to the enemy freely if they can shoot him from far away.
This, too, would make them a good Objective holder, because FFing them away would be though.

Perhabs the whole army can get -1 on engage? Only Crisis and Kroot should be unmodified (Air assault is another matter).




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