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Changes for version 4.4.1
Ilushia
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:32 pm 
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Why would they have Twin-Linked Fusion Guns? At ABSOLUTE most you can get 2 in a squad of 6 guys. Having just 1 per stand of 3 guys normally would be fine. They'd have 2 Burst Cannons and 1 MW shot. I wouldn't even give them MW in the assault to be honest (These guys are already fairly absurd in the assault as far as Tau go.) and giving them a single MW 5+ shot per base would make them effective at tank-hunting (Which is why they got that in 40K as well) without making them INSANELY good at killing infantry (Hello 4x MW 4+ and 4x AP 4+ shots! Disrupt and MW together is just nasty! Effortlessly break most units and any unit which is already broken you may as well just take off the table as soon as they start shooting.)
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:37 am 
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Ah, I was assuming a full squad per stand of stealth suits (2 fusion blasters).  With 3 suits + a drone or two per base (following JJs basing suggestion),  MW5+ would be more realistic.  That's what I get for assuming things.  

The problem is, we've established a precedent with the Crisis suits that Fusion guns have a Macro Weapon FF attack.  We could leave them alone, but I don't think I've seen a stealth team without fusion guns since the option came available (violating the 40k->epic conversion principles).

In 40k, two Stealth Teams (12 Stealth suits plus 4 Drones, which would be a Stealth Formation in E:A) will demolish just about anything that you point them at.  8 burst cannons will, on average, wound 10 guardsmen, 8 Marines, and the 4 Fusion Blasters will kill 2 more.  Two Stealth Teams can gun down a Carnifex in a single shooting phase.  The counterpoint is their short range.  

So, a stand of 3 suits + drone would have:  
Fusion Blaster:  15cm MW5+ AND
                 (15cm) Small Arms, Macro Weapon[i]
Multiple Silenced Burst Cannons:  15cm AP4+ (or 2xAP5+?) [i]Disrupt AND
                                             (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attack +1, First Strike

2x AP5+ is slightly better than one AP4+, normally, and massively better when Sustaining.

A formation would still have 4x MW5+ and either 4x AP4+ OR 8x AP5+, and both a Macro Weapon FF5+ attack, and a First Strike FF5+.  A First Strike Macro Weapon would be obscene, which is why I didn't move First Strike to the Notes section.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:45 am 
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Mmm... Why not remove the FF ability from the burst-cannons altogether then? That seems more in-line with the Tau. Let them have 5+ MW first-strike. But they ONLY get 1 attack each. yes MW First-STrike is nice. But at 5+ it's unlikely to kill more then 1-2 stands even with 6 dudes having it. Which seems fine to me. Even with 5 guys per stand you'll still only have 1 fusion cannon (You can only have 1 per 3 guys. So if you had 4+Drone or 3+drone or even 5 guys, you'd still only have 1 per stand). ANd I think that'd work fairly well. The problem I have is that they'll be looking at 6 5+ First Strike AND 6 5+ MW shots. That's fairly good. That'll average about 2 First Strike and 2 MW hits per engage. VERY good for Tau and not half-bad for other armies. Drop the second attack, and just let them have MW First-Strike. That'll average perhaps 2 hits usually. Yes, it's 2 almost guaranteed kills, but most formations (With a few notable exceptions) Will take that and answer back with far more. And RA will still get saves against it.

I can honestly say: 6 MW First-Strike attacks is not that bad. I field units of 6 Knights Lancer which get 1 FS MW, 1 FS, 1 Normal attack EACH. And even hitting on 3+ I rarely kill more then 3-4 guys with the MW strikes.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:09 am 
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It was a Demiurg vs. Tau.  Albeit Demiurg is very new, but our experience is that it is quite well balanced; if anything it is on the heavy handed side.

And the reason we didn't play a third turn is there was nobody left to PLAY a third turn with.  He had three formations left at 1/2 strength and three more broken and crippled.   I had NO blast markers (except on my bombers and Stealth Suits) since he never could reach me.

Thanks for the take on the Heavy Drones, although I'd feel better if they were a tad weaker (or more expensive).  I can't think of any other infantry formation that shoots on 3's in the entirety of Epic.

As for the win ratio, that may very well be.  I'd just feel more comfortable seeing the win ratio for the last 6 months before making this list any more powerful (that includes giving Fire Warriors AT anything).  If there is evidence to show it is in the 48-52% range, I'll keep quiet.

If the Skyray stats are done right, maybe they should be more expensive?  I'm just comparing point for point against the Hunter and it is brutal.

Also, it is a mere 25 points more than a Hydra, yet it fires 50% further, is a skimmer, has marker lights, moves 35cm, has better armor, and has additional weaponry.

If its stats are right, then its points are wrong.  Or vice versa.  Pick one.

Don't get me wrong - I like the list.  It just seems over-the-top by a bit. If I had to compare it to anything, I'd say it is a tad more powerful than the Eldar, and they are under deep scrutiny.

Once again - its only my first game.  I might be totally whacked, but I never win as easy as I did last night.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:28 am 
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I'll have to let one of the more experienced guys answer the question about the Skyray's points, but here's a parting thought.  The next step up from a 75 point upgrade is 100 (because of how it has been decided that lists will go together).  Land Raiders don't cost 100 points each anymore, because they were not that effective.

*******

I don't know, Ilushia.  How many units in the Tau list should have a Macro Weapon FF attack?  Look at it this way:  there are 2 Burst Cannons out of 3 guys, and those two guns account for 6 of the 7 shots that stand makes.  Why should the fusion gun be the only gun with an FF attack?  If anything, Stealth suits shouldn't have a MW attack, and should just have the 'normal' FF attack.

Can I get another opinion on giving Stealth suits a Fusion Blaster, and if we do, should they have an additional FF attack?  My opinion is yes, but I think I may be trying to convert them too directly from 40k.

Ilushia, could we get a battle report out of you?  It may help to show what went wrong (for the Demiurg) in that game, and what went right for you.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:46 am 
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With the SMS dropped to 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover, you think it's worth 100 points. :blink:  Wow.  Definitely got the feel of it right based on the description in IA3, then.  An SPAA that costs more than a Land Raider.  :blink:

Does anyone else confirm the Skyray being underpointed?

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Tactica
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:59 pm 
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Lion,

Heh - Absolutely not. Illusian and Hena have it wrong. Sorry - my (as well as others) opinion.

Many of us don't feel like arguing the point anymore as CS has made the Skyray to accurately reflect.

The Skyray is performing as designed for the points desirable considering the list.

CS knows our views and I feel has even reached his own conclusions on this one since he actually made the design changes here.

On this topic, some battles are just better to remain silent on - for other reasons.

'wave'

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Honda
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:22 pm 
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The problem is, we've established a precedent with the Crisis suits that Fusion guns have a Macro Weapon FF attack.  We could leave them alone, but I don't think I've seen a stealth team without fusion guns since the option came available (violating the 40k->epic conversion principles).


...and in our neck of the woods, nobody takes the FB because it's a red herring. You only get one per squad IIRC, and at best it hits on 3+, which isn't bad necessarily, but now you've moved your "invisible" squad into "come and beat the crap out of me" assault and rapid fire range. At 40 pts each (giving them the BS upgrade), that just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

They perform an outstanding role as a strong safety, but their too light to be a middle linebacker. JMO.

So, I'd actually be in favor of leaving off the MW based on my observations and experiences. YMMV.

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Honda
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:29 pm 
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It was a Demiurg vs. Tau. ?Albeit Demiurg is very new, but our experience is that it is quite well balanced; if anything it is on the heavy handed side.


I know you guys know what you are doing, but the Demiurg list is not the list you should be comparing and balancing another experimental list against. Even members of the ERC aren't going to give much credence to your observations unless you are playing against SM, IG, or Orks.

If I'm coming off harsh, I don't mean to. I know you saw what you saw, but you need to give the exercise a little more exposure.

Besides looking at the two lists, I'd want to know relative experience levels, not only with the DU and Tau lists, but other EA lists.

I may have missed this in your batrep, but what point level did you play at? What did the terrain look like? Those are all factors that weigh into a game.

So again, I'm not saying you saw "swamp gas", but you should take the DU and Tau for a spin against other armies, PLUS switch sides so that you see the equation from the other person's perspective.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:35 pm 
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Honda, all good points.  Sorry if I have misrepresented myself - it wasn't my intention.  Don't take my views here as gospel.  I will REstate that this is my very first game with the Tau .  It was also my opponents first experience against the Tau, so there are issues there as well.

In addition, the Skyray wasn't used as a flak weapon since Demiurg have no aircraft.

These were just my first impressions of the Tau, that's all.  But my brief analysis of the Skyray vs. the Hydra and the Hunter IMO deserves some explanation from CS or whoever decided that the Skyray should be armed/armored/equipped the way it is for 75 points.

Range of 75cm is more than 50% more range than the Hydra and 20% more than the Hunter.

2xAA5+ is equal to the Hydra and slightly better than the Hunter.

All move 30cm but the Skyray is a skimmer.

All can be embedded (more or less) to the same degree.

Hydra can fire 2 x AT5+ plus AP5+.
Hunter can fire AT4+.
Skyray can fire 2 x AT6+(AT5+) plus AP4+ ignore cover.

CC and FF are identical.

Skyray has markerlights.

This to me seems like the Skyray is slightly underpriced.  I might be wrong, but obviously others share my view.

In the end, I would just like some steps taken to mitigate the Tau's power.  It doesn't have to be much, just something.  The changes I see are almost all a push for strenthening an already robust army.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:32 pm 
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Honda: ?Giving stealth suits a fusion blaster was very common in my old group, and appears to be common in my new group. ?All it means is that you need to move your stealth suits more like Crisis suits (around cover), rather than relying on the Stealth field. ?The 2 fusion blasters (you can have 1 in 3 suits, so a team of 6 can get 2) let your stealth team wander around ahead of your army and smite targets of opportunity, whether they're vehicles or squads.

Moscovian: ?As I mentioned in the Skyray thread, there's a big discussion over on the Marine side about the effectiveness of Hunters. ?Some are saying that Hunters should be expensive because point cost helps to limit the number taken (Marines are 'traditionally' weak in AA abilities). ?Others say that Hunters should be pointed according to their abilities, and other limits should be used to show their rarity. ?Personally, I fall in the second camp, as equal points should mean equal capabilities. ?[rant] I should not have to pay extra points for an uber-CC unit in the Tau army if it can only be taken if two or three Crisis formations are also taken. ?The rarity is represented by having to take the multi-hundred points of Crisis formations in addition to the uber-cc unit.[/rant]

So let's compare the Skyray to the Hydra. ?
- Except for the AAA battery (something that would seem to be outside Tau thinking for support units), deployment is essentially identical. ?
- While the true range of a Skyray is more than 50% greater, that's due to the 15cm range increments that E:A uses, so the effective increase is right about 50%. ?(in 40k, 45cm=48", 75cm=72" -> ~50% increase in range)
- They have equal AA to-hit numbers (both 2x AA5+).
- Given the apparent acceptance of the SMS change, a Hydra has 2x AP4+/AT5+ and 1x AP5+, while a Skyray has 2x AT6+ Guided (effectively 2x AT5+), 1x AP5+ Ignore Cover, and Markerlights. ?I would say that the Hydra has better Secondary Weapons.
- They are both the same speed, but a Skyray is a Skimmer. ?Mobility advantage: ?Skyray. ?(Although every Tau vehicle is a skimmer, that mobility still needs to be considered in points)

Based on this review, I would say that the Skyray is fairly pointed as 75 points, and that the Hunter is the oddity. ?While the Skyray has better AA/AT range, the Hydra has better weapons overall. ?A Skyray is slightly more mobile. ?I believe that the skimmer mobility is pretty close to equalling the better overall weapons of the Hydra.

[edit]  Should I also compare the Skyray to a Firestorm?




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:15 pm 
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OKay, I am convinced (for now).  Just trying to stem off Codex creep. :cool:

With that out of the way, I look forward to annihilating my opponent, uhm, I mean playing with the Tau again. :D

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Honda
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:49 pm 
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@Moscovian

My friend, you were expressing a concern and that is what the forums are for. You didn't rant, you presented observations based on game play, not personal opinions, so you did what you were supposed to do.

I would offer that you might try running the Tau against IG/Orks if you're of the humor. I'm not that familiar with the Demiurg lists, but if they are anything like my recollection of pre-EA lists, slow big shooters are not necessarily the best match up against the Tau.

So, no harm no foul and keep on playin'.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:25 pm 
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(Honda @ Jul. 31 2006,12:22)
QUOTE
...and in our neck of the woods, nobody takes the FB because it's a red herring. You only get one per squad IIRC, and at best it hits on 3+, which isn't bad necessarily, but now you've moved your "invisible" squad into "come and beat the crap out of me" assault and rapid fire range. At 40 pts each (giving them the BS upgrade), that just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

They perform an outstanding role as a strong safety, but their too light to be a middle linebacker. JMO.

So, I'd actually be in favor of leaving off the MW based on my observations and experiences. YMMV.

"copy that"

In the bi-state area, and in traveling to chicago for a couple games here and there...

Fusion blaster on stealth is a bad deal. It means you get 1 in 3 on the unit. You cannot deepstrike at 11" range and feel comfortable because you have 18" range weapons (7 being the average roll for DS), you have to instead ?DS at 5" range from target and hope for a descent scatter and in the right direction or you land on opponent or scatter too far for the FB to have effect.

+ + + moving on + + +

Looks like this one is closed though, so... off to another thread. :)




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