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Tau Leaders
Nerroth	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Well, in that case it could be as simple as adding Leader to the stats for the Swordfish, and stick with only allowing 1 as an addition to a Hammerhead formation. Therefore, a max formation of: 1 Swordfish 7 Hammerheads (6 normal + 2 additional, with one replaced by Swordfish) 1 Skyray Seems more reasonable (if anything, I feel that the Swordfish should only be 0-1, if it is supposed to fill the role played by the Vanquisher in a Steel Legion formation - or a Hammerhead in a Gue'senshi Russ company!) Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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colonel_sponsz

Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:36 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:14 pm Posts: 390

I vaguely remeber seeing something on Norwegian(?) Leopard 2 tanks' computerised C&C systems.  Basically the system gives them accurate positional and staus information about friendly units leaving the airwaves free for chatter about enemy forces. I've always assmed the Tau have some form of 'Battle Net' and I posted a description on the old forums: The Pathfinder Shas'ui, acting on instructions from a battlefield controller in the command centre, has positioned his squad atop a small bush covered ridge over-looking the valley sweeping up to the steep cliff on the other side. Through his visor's augmented battle field overlay he can see the icon of a Broadside cadre just below the opposing cliff-top. As he looks out onto the plain he doesn't need the aid of his visor to see the brightly painted Gue'la tanks and supporting infantry carriers moving toward the trap about to be spring. As the vehicles approach his position and the cluster of target icons that have been allocated to his cadre begin to separate out into discernible targets he allocates them to other team leaders and warriors in his team, watching as the icons for rail rifles and marker lights turn red as each in turn acknowledges his target knowing the same information is appearing on the holo-visualiser in front of the Aun in his Dragonfish high above the battle. As the Gue'la vehicles enter the jaws of the trap the battle group receives clearance to fire and he aims your marker light at the lead troop carrier. When his visor's motion tracker confirms a lock he indicates that he wants missile allocation. During the, seemingly interminably long, fraction of a second it takes for the icon to turn gold confirming launch he thinks back to the classroom of his basic training and remembers the schematic of guided missile operations: "When the warrior marks a target the battle-net system allocates a missile to him based on a complex algorithm that factors in the number of missiles that have been made available for free launch by vehicle commanders and their distance from the requesting units - taking account of all requests and available missiles within the sector of operations. The missile may be fired from the transport next to the marker or from a fighter bomber as it passes within range of the target as the request is registered, but the battle-net's algorithm means that the warrior does not need to concern himself with these details. Once the battle-net has confirmed the availability of a missile to the warrior via his hard-wired helmet visor systems he triggers it's launch. The battle-net system then sends a launch command along with the target co-ordinates and the firer's markerlight frequency signature to the missile's drone brain. The missile navigates itself toward these target co-ordinates until it identifies the markerlight signature it has been keyed into and then rides the reflected light onto its target." Before the visor has picked up the signal from the drone controlling the missile allocated to his target and started displaying its distance-to-target countdown he sees the Broadsides on the opposite cliff top stand erect and ribbons of ionised air trace their path to explosions amid the lead tanks. At the same moment the rail rifles of his cadre sow destruction amongst the transports before the missiles rain down onto the thinner top armour of the remaining targets. With the smoke resulting from the barrage clearing he is already searching for a new target with his markerlight as he hears the hiss of the crisis teams' jet packs as they bound from the back slope behind and into the melee. Even through the smoke, the icons projected onto the visor's display from their IFF transmitters allows friendly troops to avoid placing fire dangerously close to their positions. Some of the surviving Gue'la are now mounting a defence from the wreckage of their carriers and, as their heavy weapons out-range the Pathfinder's pulse carbines, they are forced to pull back into cover breaking the markerlight lock for an incoming missile. It's drone brain simultaneously searches for a new markerlight lock whilst trying to identify a target for itself and, unable to find a new lock, guides itself in using shape and pattern matching algorithms programmed in before the battle. Just as the Gue'la are reorganising to mount a counter attack on the Pathfinder's position, he sees through the smoke that the icons of a cadre of Fire Warriors in their Devilfish transports has enveloped the enemy's rear and trapped them in the valley that has turned into a killing ground. This is obviously from a grunt's perspective but I think a Tank would have a similar system with bigger screens and more pretty flashing lights.   Orde _________________ "I'm smelling a whole lot of 'if' coming off this plan." Tau Army List Archive

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nealhunt	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:51 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Tactica:  I would think that 25 points would be a place to start testing.  It's a farily durable unit and the ability should be quite useful to the formation as a whole. That is assuming that is really what is wanted/needed. _________________ Neal
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baronpiero	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:06 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186	NerrothWell, in that case it could be as simple as adding Leader to the stats for the Swordfish, and stick with only allowing 1 as an addition to a Hammerhead formation. Coordinate fire seem a bit too much, but leader could give the swordfish an interesting niche role in the Tau army, rather than just be an upgunned Hammerhead. +25 pts seem fine for the leader ability alone.

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Nerroth	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:35 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	In that case, would you agree with ditching the 2nd Swordfish upgrade to the formation? Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:37 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Nerroth @ 08 Dec. 2005 (13:33)) Well, in that case it could be as simple as adding Leader to the stats for the Swordfish, and stick with only allowing 1 as an addition to a Hammerhead formation. Gary Baron P and Gary, I would not vote for new weapons on the 'leader' capable tank. I think the upgrade tanks should stay as they are. A "Command Array" or similar fancy tech name, which afforded a particular unit in a formation of armor the leader ability would be fine if pointed appropriately (25 points seems to be the running rate in discussion at present), but only if awarded to a standard hammerhead or whatever tank in the formation. The swordfish should _not_ be a required model for any formation. A swordfish model should not be religated to a command tank role only. I think any upgrades like this should work completely seperate. The swordfish upgrade is working seperately fine as is right now. 1-2 that is. Its representative of new tech, not command doctrine tech. Many have commented that the vanquisher upgrade in firepower is the realm of the IG tank co. I agree, commander should not equate to more tank weapons. This mentality should be left reserved for IG IMHO. Testing leader (command array?) at 25 as optional upgrade for some formations seems plausible as long as its added to a base or standard tank before other upgrades are considered. This is a similar montra to what chaos uses - add the upgrade to a base unit type, not an upgraded unit type. I think this makes perfect sense and adds to the balance of the formation as a whole. Now the question is - what formations should be allowed 'command array' or whatever fancy name is to be used to afford a vehicle the E:A 'leader' ability? Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Nerroth	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:48 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	I disagree. It seems that the advent of the Swordfish would be to precisely fill the role of Cadre command tank - I would surmise that the Tau had never even thought of Hammerhead Cadres until they saw the Imperial Guard on Dal'yth Prime... You want to showcase a specific techy reason for the Leader ability in a HH formation, which you would have to pay for in any event - why not marry the system to the Swordfish? What was wrong with making the Tau player only have to chop up one of his or her HH turrets for the necessary conversion? Why do you see the need for the formation to have two AT2+ shots? And given that the Swordfish is the one tank which has yet to see a particular niche found for it in the list (HH and DF are obvious, Skyray for air defence, Stingray for pseudo-arty), what is wrong with my suggestion? You say that you don't want to see the Swordfish become a required tank for a HH formation. Well, if you are offering the array as an option and not forcing it as a points increase to Tau commanders, you are in essence saying the same for the array too. Think of it: If a Tau player wants to go ahead and convert one of their HHs into a Swordfish, they can also mount a module on the hull to represent the array! Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:49 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	I would make a Swordfish a 0-1 per formation, but I still disagree about using the Swordfish as the command tank to begin with.  It does make the command tank easy to identify, however. _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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HecklerMD

Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:52 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201

Quote (Nerroth @ 08 Dec. 2005 (05:33)) Well, in that case it could be as simple as adding Leader to the stats for the Swordfish, and stick with only allowing 1 as an addition to a Hammerhead formation. ..... Seems more reasonable (if anything, I feel that the Swordfish should only be 0-1, if it is supposed to fill the role played by the Vanquisher in a Steel Legion formation - or a Hammerhead in a Gue'senshi Russ company!) First adding Leader should be through a character upgrade, not a unit upgrade. the SF is meant to kill hard-to-kill armor, not function as a command tank: The Swordfish is also a relatively new addition to the Tau armed forces, being based on the familiar chassis of the Hammerhead and Devilfish. Its defining feature is, without a doubt, the huge twin-linked Railgun mounted on its turret, which makes it extremely effective at taking out enemy armour at great range. This was exactly the role it has been built to fulfill, after the sometimes painful experiences with Imperial armour and heavy armour won during the Damocles crusade. In typical Tau fashion, it is not a replacement for, but an addition to the Hammerhead, taking on targets that are exceptionally well armoured. However, the design isn?t fully developed yet and the Swordfish is suffering from some minor problems as a consequence, especially during long-term campaigns. It requires an extensive amount of maintenance and repair/refit with spare parts, but its impressive fighting capabilities make up for this drawback. Fluff perspective: Tau would promote personell based on merit, meaning that the Fire Caste with the best leadership and tactical thinking skills will rise to the leadership positions,for the greater good, and those with the best weapons and marksmanship skills will be assigned better/less mudane weapons, for the greater good.  That means a leader, say a AMHC Commander, will let the crew with the best marksmanship record pilot the SF attached to his cadre, rather than take it for himself, for the greater good, and the Commander will put himself into a HH with additional C3 equipment so as not to concentrate the AMHC's special assets (commander, C3 equip, heavy weapons) in one package, once again, for the greater...well, you get the idea. Gaming perspective: It gives no advantage to add a commander to a SF, as it is as vulnerable as in a HH, and it creates a disadvantage in that one model carries the leader AND all that extra firepower. Modeling perspective A player unable or unwilling to sacrafice 2 HH models to create a SF (And a DF) should not be prevented from taking a commander/SF combo.  Modeling a HH w/ Commander is as easy as a different paint shceme, or perhaps adding some attanne.  A SF requires much more and might be beyond some modellers, and they should not be excluded or forced to use "counts as" Real Life perspective:   In the U.S. Army, of which I have more than passing familiraity (MLRS 13P) the higher ups, senior NCOs and officers, get less weaponary, not more.  A Company/Battery First Sergent is equipped with a 9mm pistol, not a M16, as are the XO and CO.  Plt Sgts and Plt Leaders never carry anything other than the basic M16 and perhaps some grenades.  I cant speak for Infantry units, but in the Arty world, squad leaders DID carry the M249 SAW (Para for you CS players out there), but other "extra"  weapons like the M203 grenade launcher were carried by the lowliest of grunts like, well, me!  I'm confident in saying that in infantry units, weapons such as sniper weapons, anti-tank rockets, and claymore mine type weapons are similarly, not carried around or used by those with rank. The point being is that the higher you go in ranks the LESS weaponry you are likley to carry, not more. For all these reasons, I think we should NOT make the Swordfish a "command tank," and continue to allow it as a 1-2 replacement for HHs.  Our "Tank Commander" should be a character upgrade to be added to HH, giving it Leader and Coordinated Fire. Edit:  Grr, Tactica, you beat me by 11 minutes!

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Soulless1	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:46 pm Posts: 14 Location: Leicester, UK (termtime). South Essex, UK (holidays).	Yeah, i'm definately liking the 'Command Array' idea (though maybe 'Command Net' would make more sense, but that's just being picky) and I would suggest that it is included as an option for all Cadres. How about that? _________________ 'Of course you should fight fire with fire; you should fight everything with fire!' 'Those who live by the sword, die by the rifle'
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HecklerMD

Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:14 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201

[quote="Nerroth,08 Dec. 2005 (10:48)"][/quote] You want to showcase a specific techy reason for the Leader ability in a HH formation, which you would have to pay for in any event - why not marry the system to the Swordfish? What was wrong with making the Tau player only have to chop up one of his or her HH turrets for the necessary conversion? Why do you see the need for the formation to have two AT2+ shots? Why do you see the need to force a Tau player to chop up any models in order to take a commander for thier AMHC?   And given that the Swordfish is the one tank which has yet to see a particular niche found for it in the list (HH and DF are obvious, Skyray for air defence, Stingray for pseudo-arty), what is wrong with my suggestion?

The SF fills the "I've got 25/50 more points to spend to get to 2700/3000/3500/ect, what can I add.." niche, and the "Man I love my AMHC + HH Upgrade formation, how can I give it more firepower..." Niche, and the "My IG opponent sure likes those LRusses, I think I need a little mo'betta AT shooting..." niche!  


Think of it: If a Tau player wants to go ahead and convert one of their HHs into a Swordfish, they can also mount a module on the hull to represent the array!


Again, and if they dont or cannot, get/make a SF, they cant have a commander.  Oh well, tough luck chump, right?