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questions on ML sentry turrets
Honda
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:12 pm 
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The real utility of RSTs is in backing them up with Piranha or Stingray formations (the two biggest Guided Missile equipped formations in a Tau army


You left off Scorpionfish, Barracudas, Tigersharks...basically anything with a GM attack benefits from these. Also keep in mind that they really don't give you the "one big killer shot", but the +1 for ML added to lots of shots will eventually tell.

That's why it has to be part of your plan. It doesn't yield home runs, it gives you lots of base hits.

And just to comment on the proposals so far, I really haven't seen anything proposed that significantly improves over what we have now. Not to be harsh on the ideas proposed, but other than single units (which would need a limitation imposed upon them), we really haven't gotten very far.

Not to say that we won't, but this really shouldn't require as much effort as say, the AX-1-0 debate.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:52 am 
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That's true Honda but they aren't supposed to be sweeping changes, just a different and better functioning way to run them in-game. It's probably a good thing that they aren't much different than what we have already
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:52 pm 
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In a way, they are serious changes.  Changing from a formation to single units is a big thing (but fully in character with their deployment in IA3, IMO).  Yes, there does need to be a limit on RSTs (I think I've shown why), but no-one likes the limiting method I've proposed.  I don't like a flat limit, as that throws the list out of whack in larger and smaller games (6 RSTs in 2k is a different beast than 6 in 6k, where they're balanced at 6 in 2700-3k).  I much prefer to have proportional limits (6 per 3k or part thereof, for example, or 3 per 90cm of table length) or limits tied to another unit (you can have no more units of RSTs than units of "X" in the force).  I support having RSTs a costed unit, not a set part of the army like Commissars, because there's no easy way to scale the deployment.

Right now, in v4.4, I will not waste my time/$$/points with RST formations.  They don't work well, nor do they wok the way that they should in the fluff.

In 40k, Markerlights have become a key part of Tau lists under the new codex.  The ability to nearly double the effectiveness of your shooting is huge for the Tau.  If anything, MLs should add +1 to-hit across the board in Epic, not just to Guided Missiles.  That's how powerful they are now.  (I believe that we've already assumed Marked targets in the Tau's ranged to-hit #, however).

Sentry Turrets are somewhere between a pathfinder team and a minefield in 40k and fluff.  They exist to sit in the desert, and watch for some stupid human to wander into their ML range.  Then, the RSTs have already sent a report off to someplace, and there's a reaction team coming to blast the intruders.

RSTs are largely a defensive weapon, and should be a little challenging to use on the offense (if they get used at all).  They are ambush units, after all.

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Chroma
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:59 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Aug. 20 2006,18:52)
QUOTE
RSTs are largely a defensive weapon, and should be a little challenging to use on the offense (if they get used at all). ?They are ambush units, after all.

Might that indicate that the "Tournament Scenario" isn't really the place for them then?

Perhaps they should be in an addition to the "Assault Scenario" along with Tau style defence turrents and such.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:25 am 
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Possibly, but with a little creativity on the Tau player's part, they can work very well in the tournament scenario.  The 'Tournament Scenario' is not necessarily a meeting engagement, after all.  Part of the challenge is fighting defensively without thinking defensively.  With RSTs on the table, you need to get your opponent to come to you, but you can't be reacting to his moves.  You really need to get sneaky.  'Patient Hunter' sneaky.  

For Example:
Set up so that the obvious approaches to your army are covered, but not by the RSTs.  As your opponent will probably not want to advance there, he'll head towards a less obviously defended part of your lines.  Then you pop the RSTs in ML range of him, and Retain and co-fire the crap out of his leading elements.  It's not an easy tactic to use, however.

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Honda
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:16 pm 
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Sentry Turrets are somewhere between a pathfinder team and a minefield in 40k and fluff.  They exist to sit in the desert, and watch for some stupid human to wander into their ML range.  Then, the RSTs have already sent a report off to someplace, and there's a reaction team coming to blast the intruders.



I would contest this generalization. I don't believe that they have any shared qualities with a minefield for the most simplest of reasons.

Even in 40K, if all you are armed with is a ML, then you cannont cause any damage to the targeted unit. Some form of firepower must be added to the ML in order to take advantage of the effect of being lit up.

Also, as you pointed out, I don't think the Tau just threw the RST's about willynilly (or is that W'lly, N'lly) and hoped that someone might stumble across them so that another unit could move over and shoot at the target. I think they were deliberately placed in front of advancing units so that units in waiting, could fire upon the targets when the target got in range.

So again, I infer that the RST are part of a well crafted plan, not an unexpected opportunity.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:26 pm 
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Dilly-dally, Shilly-Shally (D'lly D'lly Sh'lly Sh'lly :p ).  You're right, an RST by itself can do no damage to anything.  In 40k, Seeker missiles have an unlimited range.  If you are within ML range of anything, a Seeker missile anywhere on the board can fire on you, even if the Seeker missile is outside of Indirect Basilisk range from the target.  That's devastating.  [Way Off-topic:  That reminds me, why are Seeker Missiles only 75cm range?  Imperial Hellstrikes have a 120cm range, and are also 'unlimited' range in 40k. Discussion has been opened here. ]

I didn't mean to imply that RST's (or a minefield, for that matter) are emplaced without reason.  RSTs are really closer to tripflares or other perimeter defenses, but the sensors and ML have enough reach to make it possible to cover very large perimeters.  They could also merely be emplaced to cover likely routes of advance (like a pass through the mountains).  From the description in IA3, it seems more like the Tau deployed multiple sensor lines, so that they would know where the Imperial forces were, and could then direct reaction forces to their location.  The same thing holds true for minefields.  If some mines go off, you send a patrol out to investigate.  It's just that these 'mines' are more closesly related to a burglar alarm or a recon team.  RST's 'going off' is merely a warning that someone is where they are not supposed to be.

They effectively slowed the Imperial forces down, giving more time to crush the Elysians.  A conventional minefield would have had a similar effect, but would actually consume more resources (you need LOTS more explosive mines than you need RSTs), as well as remaining a hazard to Tau forces (and locals) after the Imperial defeat.

Perhaps a better analogy would be like the SCUD-hunter special forces teams in Desert Storm.  They don't really have the firepower to destroy a SCUD launcher, but they do have a radio and a laser target designator.  See a SCUD Launcher, designate the launcher, and 'boom!' goes the launcher.  

Also, a minefield is referred to as an 'area-denial weapon', the same way that RSTs are.  Sure, RSTs need to have other units available to actually damage the opponent, but the mere presence of RSTs makes it hazardous to enter that area (since you have no idea when the next attack is going to come), just like a minefield.  If anything, the Tau theories of warfare are closer to naval battles than to land-based warfare.  Tau don't hold ground, period.  They will conduct delaying actions to allow the evacuation of noncombatants, but once the 'sillyvilians' are gone, it's just another area to fight through, nothing more.  They use 'mines' the same way.  RSTs are there to threaten you with attack from unexpected directions and ranges, much like modern naval warfare.  Naval mines do very nasty things, and you never know what will cause a naval mine to go off.  If you want to be safe from naval mines, you need to remove every single mine from the water.  Same thing with RSTs.

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Honda
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:08 pm 
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@Lion

I concur with your elaborations. I also really like your naval analogy.

On the 40K Tau boards, Tactica and I (among others) had some pretty heavy (and entertaining) discussions on optimal Tau configurations. I think most people agree that in Epic, it's almost required that mechanization permeate you're force, due to the strong need to remain mobile and move aggressively to not only counter threats, but initiate action.

40K is a different animal because of the forced physical constraints, especially in the tournament scenarios. I play my 40K Tau just like I do my Epic, whcih is an all mechanized list, because that's how I envision them being effective and preserving their forces.

We don't have to go into the Hybrid/Mech thing here, but your analolgy is quite appropriate. Ships don't hold ground...unless they are sinking.  :cool:

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Tactica
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:51 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Aug. 18 2006,00:38)
QUOTE
ROBOTIC SENTRY
[snip] [Can we get some better fluff here?]
Tau armies may include 6 Remote Sentry Turrets. ?Each Remote Sentry Turret is an individual unit with no Zone of Control, and cannot be used to claim objectives. ?Additionally, Remote Sentry Turrets suffer no effects from Blast Markers. ?Once placed on the table, Remote Sentry Turrets do not activate, and are Immobile.


What do y'all think?

I'm prepared to give it a try if the majority is on board.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:46 pm 
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Honda, for what it's worth, I also play very mobile Tau in 40k. ?I just like lots of Crisis suits most of the time. ?I have been known to play a crisis horde for all the games working up to the tournament, and then show up at the tourney with Mech FW instead. ?(talk about a rude surprise for some people :devil: ) ?FW can hold a position, but even with FW on foot I will move them (nothing like running up and gunning down a Scout squad).

ROBOTIC SENTRY
    First encountered in the deserts of Taros, Remote Sentry Turrets are used by the Tau as both observation points and in a manner similar to a minefield. ?Sentry Turrets are armed only with a Markerlight, but when supported by fast-moving formations armed with Seeker, Tracer, and Submunition missiles they become a force multiplier to be reckonned with. ?
    On Taros, the Tau used Remote Sentry Turrets to spring hit and run ambushes designed to slow the advance of the Cadian 114th Regiment, preventing the Cadians from relieving the besieged Elysian 23rd Regiment. ?The failure of the Cadian 114th was a large factor in the defeat of the Imperial Forces.
    Since the Taros Campaign, Remote Sentry Turrets have been found on other Tau-controlled planets, deployed both as picket lines around vital industries and military facilities, and as observation posts along likely approaches to those facilities. ?They have also been sighted at natural choke-points in terrain, such as passes and river fords. ?Camouflaged to blend into the terrain, Remote Sentry Turrets are difficult to spot before the Tau spring an attack.

    Tau armies may include 6 Remote Sentry Turrets. ?Each Remote Sentry Turret is an individual unit with no Zone of Control, and cannot be used to claim objectives. ?Additionally, Remote Sentry Turrets suffer no effects from Blast Markers. ?If teleporting the Remote Sentry Turrets, roll once for all 6 Remote Sentry Turrets to activate them for purposes of Deployment only. ?Once placed on the table, Remote Sentry Turrets do not activate, and are Immobile. ?

I added the line in bold to clarify teleporting RSTs. ?Also, what do y'all think about the flufftext?




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Tactica
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:22 pm 
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Lion,

Just to be clear, you are saying that these would activate during the course of a player turn, not deploy at the beginning of a turn as per normal teleport before both players roll to see who wins the initiative, correct?

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:05 pm 
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Have I been misunderstanding how Teleport works all this time? :cuss: !  I'd been rolling to bring them in, just like in 40k.  

If that's not the case, then that bold line can just go away.  They should deploy the same way as any other Teleporting unit.  KISS rules.

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Tactica
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:21 pm 
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Lion,

well... :)~

+ + +

OK, so - what do you think?


ROBOTIC SENTRY


   Tau armies may include 6 Remote Sentry Turrets at no points cost.  Each Remote Sentry Turret is an individual formation of one unit. Remote Sentry Turrets have no Zone of Control, cannot be used to claim or contest objectives, suffer no effects from Blast Markers and are immobile.  Remote Sentry Turrets do not activate.


Now, the unit's datasheet would have Markerlight, Teleport and Robotic Sentry.

Are we good?

'wave'

Rob

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:00 pm 
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That's what I was thinking, Tac.

Do you like the fluff I wrote up for them, or should I go back to the drawing board?

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Honda
 Post subject: questions on ML sentry turrets
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:56 pm 
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Check out the batrep I posted. I took two formations of RST's in a 3K battle.

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