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Tigershark

Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:53 pm

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I think what has happened is that someone from FW was lurking on the old SG E:A forum when we were discussing the lack of TK in the list ('way back when), and built the AX10 from that discussion as a dedicated titan-hunter. We, OTOH, took the Orca chassis and built the Scorp-fish/Narwhal, and invented the Moray from whole cloth to be the Tau superheavy 'tanks'.

FW then went on to write IA3, with stats for their stuff, (and hints of a Narwhal in the Orca section!) but didn't include our 'proxy' Moray (that JG uses an Emissary to represent, and others recommend the BFG Cruisers for).

The problem is that there's no talking between the two sides, it seems.

Our question is, do we accept FW's fluff for the AX10, and make it a serious threat to 3DC WEs, or do we ignore FW's fluff and tone it down a bit to make it hunt LRuss companies?

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Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:26 am

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Lion,

I think that's a fair E:A Tau 'Vision' question. However, none of us can answer that one. This is a question for the E:A Tau Champion.

We have the tau history to respect, we have a franchise (40K) rules precident to be mindful of, we have JJ to stisfy, we have the E:A rules system to contend with, game play balance is paramount, and we have a Champion's vision of the E:A list as well.

Something in my previous post, suggestion 2) may satisfy more of these than suggestion 1) - however, both work to address the issues above to varying degrees.

If CS would like to make a decision, I recomend baby steps and we go forward from there. The 4.3.3 will not be a final version, just the next version. We should be able to live with some amount of change and continue testing.

Cheers,

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RedDevil

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:29 am

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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 pm
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Quote (Lion in the Stars @ 05 Jan. 2006 (10:53))

.....and invented the Moray from whole cloth to be the Tau superheavy 'tanks'.

Actually, on that note, what is the Moray? Is it a space ship? Is it a big hover tank? Is it an ancient grandfather of the current Manta? The more I look at it, the more I can't figure out why it's in the Tau list other than "we want a titan too!" syndrome.

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Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:32 pm

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RD,

That's part of it I suppose. Its also filling a much needed support role.

Like many vehicles across many lists in E:A - it only appears in Epic and is seen nowhere in any part of the franchise.

...and most Tau fans really like the vehicle too.

Cheers,

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:56 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Like I said, JG used the Emmissary starship for his Moray. I believe it's intended to be a starship between Manta- and Tigershark-sized.

I'd like to see the Moray evolve into something more like a Reaver titan-sized superheavy, to allow the AX10 to fill the role FW created it for.

That's my thought, anyway.

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RedDevil

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:11 pm

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Who commissioned the Moray, the Aircaste? I find that hard to believe coming from a BFG background.....

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Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:05 pm

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RD,

Why would that be hard to believe... its a make-believe race in a make-believe game system. Its all pretend. LOL.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:29 pm

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I think he means what are the Air Caste (the pilots, remember?) doing building what amounts to a superheavy/ Titan class ground attack vehicle (that doesn't exist in BFG, the source of Air Caste stuff in the universe, BTW)?

A flight of 3-4 Morays in BFG would eat most starships alive, BTW, since they have about half the firepower of a Manta each in E:A.

My gripe is: why do we have both a Scorp'fish/Narwhal and a Moray, which are the same size, doing similar jobs (albeit with different weapons)? If we up the size of the Moray to ~5DC, then it makes sense to have both, but not right now. IG SHTs with different weapon fits have different combat niches, but the Tau WEs don't.

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colonel_sponsz

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:52 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:14 pm
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Strikes me that we seem to have the following 'equivalents' in terms of role (if not stats or points):

Scorpionfish <~> Super Heavy Tank (Baneblade etc.)
Tigershark <~> Scout Titan (Warhound / Revenant)
Moray <~> Medium Battle Titan (Reaver)
Manta <~> Battle Titan (Warlord / Phantom)

As I see it the main differnce between the Scorpionfish and Tigershark (both DC3) is that the TS is an Aircraft which should add to it's survivability over the SF.

Orde

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Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:21 pm

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Completely agree with Orde on this. He's got it dead on.

Keep in mind folks, the manta is really 10 DC but toned down intentionally for game balance. Moray is probably half that - but again toned down for game balance.

TS aircraft, like all aircraft, is artificially toned down for E:A game balance as well. (range and strength)

However I'm quite pleased with where things stand from balance and utility. The scorpion, TS (both variants) and moray (both variants) all have very different battlefield roles IMHO.

The Scorpion is the only one that I'm not sure if its working correctly for the points though. For me, the scorpion rarely makes the cut, and when it does, I usually seem to regret it. More testing to be done now that 4.3.3 is out though.

BTW: I think the earthcaste has a hand in making all craft. The aircaste are the pilots and work with them in design. Its my understanding that air and earthcaste scientists made all of the latest generation of all BFG (per recollection of FW fluff) and that Ethereals even oversee a lot of design/implementation work. If that's the case, I'm not sure who really has the infinite wisdom or credit to creation of any one of the craft in the end...

Who created the Moray isn't much concern of mine. It's a critical piece within the list IMHO. Its one of JG's design elements and had JJ's blessing from my understanding. Definitely looking forward to its continued use now that its been playtested extensively to have two versions that both have viability and appearent balance.

Cheers,

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:56 pm

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Location: London

TS equivalent to a scout titan? None that are currently published clearly - how do you equate the firepower and survivability?

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Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:58 pm

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TRC

AX-1-0 is meant to hunt titans per FWorld.

It did so in FW Taros campaign per fluff.

The Tau suprised the Imperium with the AX-1-0. The retrofit Tiger was such a threat to the imperiums titans that the imperium backed off the titans and evacuated them from the assault and completely removed them from the battle!

Besides that... no reference.

CHeers,

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:32 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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AX10 is built to kill titans, per FW. One AX10 made a very low pass (I'll have to dig out IA3 for the batrep fluff. Good imagery there), came up over a dune, and lit up one of 4 Warhounds supporting a general advance (warhounds had been nigh-invulnerable up to this point) with missile and Railcannon fire. By itself, it killed a Warhound, mano-a-mano, in it's combat debut. The (completely unexpected) loss of the lead Warhound caused the withdrawl of the other 3, all the way off-planet. Before the appearance of the AX10, the 'only threat to a Titan was a Manta', per FW.

That is the only reference for the AX10. When the issue of Tau TK came up back in the day (on the SG board), I suggested TK seeker missiles carried by a Tigershark variant. Instead, the population went to big guns. This created the Whiteshark, which was (at the time) designed for more RA/AT than TK (IIRC), and the railMoray (the Tau Shadowsword). Then FW made the 40k AX10 (and gave it the big fething guns from the Manta, that we'd already given to the Moray), and things got complicated.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:09 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Location: London

A rather pedantic point, thats not equivalent, thats superior

Indeed you have something that if you are good at using air or can achievve air superiority the opponent is toast. Which is of course what should happen - but Epic isn't set up for that being about ground combat in the main (air combat being less exciting).

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colonel_sponsz

Post subject: Tigershark

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:31 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:14 pm
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My comprison was more in terms of roles than in terms of tabletop performance / stats / points. Given that Tau don't have titans, the Manta is the heaviest weapon platform that can take and give a fair bit of punishment (the lWarlord / Phantom / Gargant / Hydraphant role). The moray is a lighter and faster but still packs the punch of some MW/TK firepower (a la Reaver / Hierophant). The Tigershark packs two pretty heavy weapons in a light and manoeuverable chassis that can be used for hunting infantry / SHT's / titans but doesn't really have what it takes to survive un-supported (like a Warhound / Revenant / Harridan). Finally the Scorpionfish is a slower and samller war engine that still packs a fair punch - much more than a regular tank (Baneblade / Cobra(?) / Hierodule).

None of the comparisons with other armies are exact (especially as my detailed knowledge of other armies is limted) and the boundaries are blurred but these roles are basic stepping stones of Epic as first defined by the Imperial hiarachy.

It's kind of like naval vessels: friggate, cruiser, destroyer, battleship etc. but I've never really understood those fully.

Orde

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