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CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments

 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:32 pm 
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Thats down to tactics.  Specialised formations are better under ideal situations, but worse in unfavourable situations.  Which set of circumstances applies depends on your tactics and your opponents.  Can you guarantee that you will always be able to use your formations in the most advantageous way?  Your opponent will be doing all he can to do the opposite.


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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:17 am 
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No I cannot.  When it fails, it will likely fail worse than 'Master of none' units.  When it succeeds, it will likely succeed better than 'Master of none' units.  I tend to favour combinations that allow me to gain more benefit if my Tatics prevail, but I must concede to you your point, as it is my preference, and not everyones.


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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:41 pm 
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Quote (RedDevil @ 03 Dec. 2005 (21:26))
FW's: ? 9.75cm^2/pt
-Two more stands
-Extra AP 15cm disrupt shot
-No transport, we could add these, but not only would it make their marking efficiency dismal, it would further allow an extra +Tetra upgrade for the Tetra's while still being 50pts cheaper than the FW's.

Tetras: ?22.29cm^2/pt
-Faster
-Scouts
-Same armour, FF, CC, and AP 30cm shot
-Two less stands
-No Disrupt shot (though scout mitigates this somewhat)

Analysis noted, but when I figure the formations role of marking an area, I don't want them to go away quickly. The Tetras are rather fragile as LV and have a limited amount of terrain they can get into by comparison to the infantry. The FW can dig into buildings and fortified bunkers making them a better choice if I want to mark an area and remain dug in while holding the objective.

Also, your analysis doesn't show any resilience to your coverage. Sure,t he scout ability allows the tetras to cover more ground, but there's no redundancy. So you can spread out - nice, a very minimal amount of damage drastically affects your ability to cover an area.

Furthermore, the tetras will break easier than the FW.

If my goal is to hold and mark an area, the tetras don't stand near the chance as they are suseptable to more fire, are a smaller formation, don't have the upgrade options by comparison, and cannot get into the same terrain - and they don't get a cover save as infantry do.

If I'm just taking the FW to mark an area, I can also add pathfinders and more fw and even stealths to the formation if that's really my goal.

Then my one formation can really cover some ground if I need them too - they also go up in points of course.

If my goal is to hold and mark - and remain, then the FW work better.

In the end, maybe they are not 'great' at doing any one thing, they are our core troop that affords us some options such as hold ground with armor saves, mark enemy, defend against attackers that might rapid strike... that allows them to assume a few different roles as the game progresses.

Human Aux don't mark and neither do kroot, they both have their own specific infantry roles. Maybe CW is right, maybe the FW is really meant to serve the jack-of-all trades infantry choice in the Tau list.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:51 pm 
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Quote (RedDevil @ 05 Dec. 2005 (05:17))
No I cannot.  When it fails, it will likely fail worse than 'Master of none' units.  When it succeeds, it will likely succeed better than 'Master of none' units.  I tend to favour combinations that allow me to gain more benefit if my Tatics prevail, but I must concede to you your point, as it is my preference, and not everyones.

I think this probably sums it up nicely.  It's largely a matter of preference.

Personally, I like 2 things in my armies - flexibility and numbers.  They are obviously flexible.  At 25 points/model (with or without transport) FW are relatively cheap and fieldable in formations of up to 18 using only a single upgrade slot.  Unsurprisingly, I think they are pretty good as-is.

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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:47 am 
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Tactica:  Yes the FW's would have better staying power.  3 kills to break the formation of 8 with AP only, while 2 kills to break the Tetra formation with either AT/AP fire.  I have to concede that.  The Tetra's are cheaper, and faster however, as well as being able to cover more area.  It seams to bad that FW's are being relegated to markerlight duty over Pathfinder's however.  

I should make an alternate houserules list, that translates the 40K Tau almost exactly to Epic.  The current list is very good, but I just feel disappointed by it coming from 40K :(  It play's similarily to 40K but has many different theological differences in my mind.

Aw well, I did my best.  I guess I will retire from this board now, and just let the list come out as is.

I will be lurking, and poke my head up once and a while, but other than these points, I really have no complaints about the list.

Cheers,
RedDevil


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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:36 pm 
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RedDevil,

I don't think anyone where will disagree with you that the E:A list is completely different than the Tau 40K.  A huge 40K fan myself, I cannot disagree with you.

I share your dissapointment that older concepts I'm familiar with in 40K aren't really represented in E:A. However, the scale of the battle, mechanics of E:A, game simplicity, established developmental precidents, etc... are all the cause of these differences.

I personally hope you stay active on the boards. The more feedback the better.

I'm sure you're aware that the current lists' stage stems from many many months of feedback and both JJ and player input. We are on our second AC as well. If I recall, you've only recently joined the boards. That's a good thing as new blood is always welcome.

You came in with some big ideas, many of those ideas have seen playtest in some format or another in previous interations of the list. However, as the list grows, previous ideas are always interesting to revisit as they may now have merit. As a result, I think your comments have spawned some interesting discussion. That's a good thing.

However, I would not expect you to leave or become silent because your first suggested ideas did not receive mass adoption out of the gate. As noted, the list does have some history to why it looks the way it does presently. Surely you would expect us to defend those ideas if they were challenged. It doesn't mean our ideas are all 100% correct, but there is some history getting us to this stage. New ideas changing those principle based decisions (markers and gm) will be challenged unless they result in a mass epiphany board wide. :)

I hope you stick around. We don't want to see anyone vanish for the wrong reasons.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:06 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 06 Dec. 2005 (16:36))
I don't think anyone where will disagree with you that the E:A list is completely different than the Tau 40K.  A huge 40K fan myself, I cannot disagree with you.

As someone who doesn't like 40k I also cannot disagree either. :p

Other than that, Rob's absolutely right.  We're generally a very friendly buch who are prepared to bounce ideas around and see if there is anything in them that could be used, even if it's not what was originally proposed - check out the discussion about Tau leaders and BM managent to see what I mean.

Orde

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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:17 pm 
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Actually I was here before JimmyGrill was made Champion back when this list was the baby of JJ (version 3.0 and earlier).  This was before the list was moved to EpiComms.  Back then there was  were two groups that were roughly even in size:  One that liked the old system, and one that wanted the current system.  Jimmy was one of the head proponents of the new system, when he became champion, basically all debate was quashed and he cast the split vote to make the system as it is now.  A lot of those people from the old SG boards just disappeared after that.  I came back to check on things.   To me, you are all the new ones :laugh:   I am not leaving, I am just returning to lurk status.  Despite my huge push to try and make the Seeker Markerlight mechanic return back to it's 40K roots, I really like the current list.  Because I don't have any other concept problems with the list, I was just saying that you will likely not see as much from me besides the occasional comment or two.  

Some units might still need some tweaks here or there, but that will just come with playtesting.  Good work all, and I tried my best. :;):






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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:09 am 
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RedDevil,

Fair enough. Remember too, many of us still have v1 lists lieing around the house. ;)

Cheers,

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 Post subject: CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:43 am 
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Remember too, many of us still have v1 lists lieing around the house. ;)


Well, I wasn't going to brag, but since you brought it up...

:blush:

Yes, a few of us have been around awhile, now haven't we...

:;):

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