Scratch that, just found another version, (V3, i think the last one before the lists were handed over to the army champions.)
It removed the defensive fire rule
Added Discretion over Valour (-2 to engagement, +1 to Sustain and Overwatch)
Boosted Crisis/Stealth FF to 3+
FW/HH/Orca/Manta FF to 4+

Maybe not Marines, but they certainly wouldn't bring much truly unique to the Epic party. They'd be just another attrition-based Firefight army.


That'd be why Jstr is on a 6 game winning streak with the Tau, and Yme-Loc's only lost one game when using the Tau in 6.x, right?


Yes it happened 9 months ago when 6.x began.
There was also a short testing period of a month or two before that whilst we worked out if the idea was practical at all, known as the "E series".



Changes instituted since then, any of which may have affected the Engagement if it were repeated now:

- Manta gained Fearless
- Manta went from FF5+ to FF4+
- Hammerheads reduced in price by 50%
- Crisis Suit Cadre MW shot became better (In case you were on Overwatch)

Re-fight that Engagement now, I'm willing to bet one cyber-puppy you wouldn't see such dramatic results (And that's leaving aside the absurdly unlucky dice you had).

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Really? What's the cost of them now?

Should be 50pts each now.

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Cool, Thanks

I've already mentioned that the Manta has improved.
Both would make absolutely no difference to the outcome of the Engagement we had.

I really don't know why you think there was unlucky dice. I have repeatedly stated that basically, everything happened just as it statistically should have. There was no luck in it (apart from the Supreme Commander making his Inv Save). People who want to defend the current list are trying to defend the outcome to the engagement that we played and I'm sorry but that just isn't how the Tau should work (the changes to the Manta are a step in the right direction, not the whole solution to the problem).

Oh, and an attrition based army that needs a 4+ to call an Engagement (3+ for Manta/Crisis Suits) isn't going to be quite as effective as any other attrition based army in the game (let alone trying to set an Engagement up and retain to assault on a 5+ or 4+ with Manta/Crisis). They will still have to play differently to win, not just try and shoot the opponent off the table, a tactic that just isn't effective in Epic Armageddon.

I'm happy for the players that are winning with the current Tau list. Unfortunately, to me, they just aren't using a true and characterful Tau army list to win. Winning isn't everything to me.

What happened in V3 games?
Did the list still have Scorpionfish and other units that were fan created?
Did the inclusion of the non canon units effect the outcome of games?
If the non canon units were removed from the list, would the list have worked?
It's really interesting to be able to pick the brain of someone who played earlier versions of the Tau list (I've been using my Tau for about the last 2-3 years).

It's interesting to note that the idea has been about before. Maybe the idea would work better now that the army list is nowhere near as flexible as it once was.
I certainly don't see a need to boost Sustain or Overwatch initiative tests. I also would not call for 3+FF on anything (although the Crisis Suits really should have MW FF).

Anyway, I've had my say (again ). I'll get my coat...

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As I recall, I ran the numbers on your assault and found it to be a highly atypical result.

In addition, Land Raider Crusaders were involved, which, if you were using their 3x FF attacks (1 macro), were an overpowered experimental vehicle which has subsequently been downgraded (Or damn well should have been).

Which is just another reason playtest games should be played against established lists. Throwing two experimental lists against each other will produce atypical results.

And a final point: You got caught intermingled in an Engagement by Marines... you should lose such an engagement, period.

Maybe not in such a one-sided way, but then you were using experimental units (Overpowered LRC's, and who knows what else), an underpowered Manta, and had some less-than-stellar dice rolls.



Manta : 4 hits
FW Cadre (8 strong) : 2.66 hits
Crisis Cadre (4 strong) : 1.33 hits
Hammerheads (4 strong) : 1.33 hits

Let's assume the LRCs were at the front:
2 hits on one LRC
2 hits on the other LRC
5.33 hits on the 4 Tactical Marines

On average that's 2.5(actually a little over) Tactical units and 1 LRC destroyed.
More if the LRCs weren't at the front.

You destroyed one Tactical unit. That ain't good dice.


Marines firing back at you:
2 LRCs : 2 hits
4 Tactical Marines : 2 hits

All 4 hits go on the Manta. ~1 DC of damage is caused.

It should take a crapload of supporting fire to win by so much that you're wiped out. Thousands of points worth of support.

And if you got caught surrounded by thousands of points of Marines in an intermingled Engagement, again, you deserved to lose.

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Minor point, but Onyx did say he killed a LRC aswell, coupled with the lucky SC save, that's not far off average kills. (what the marines did is a different thing...)


That was a long time ago and many generations of lists can't remember that far back but i'll try and find if I still have any notes from back then. Also I've found V4.4, by this point the FF value had gone back up, with the loss of the special rules mention previously. Interestingly, this list also had markerlights giving +1 to hit... Seems like you guys are rehashing all the things we tried .

If anyone wants to have a look at these old lists I can put them up


No, they came in in version 3.1, 3.2 ish - just a side note, but the AX - 0 - 1 was fan created

Yes, they covered holes that caused tremendous issues for the tau.

Stingray, Scorpionfish - Support guided missile platforms provided AP missiles against hordes
Moray, AX-0-1 Anti-titan alternatives to the manta, akin to shadowswords

Titan and warengine (RA & TRA vehicles) were a massive problem as the Manta was the only thing that had a Macro weapon, the hero cruiser, the only titan killer. - The Scorpionfish was also given 4 Macro weapon GMs to help here.




They weren't in, the list didn't work for the reasons above, (no MW/TK)

Glad you're finding it good , I hope I can continue helping with the development until completion this time

Seems like quite a few ideas have come full circle

Cheers, Tim

It's my problem with it too. Despite having a Tau army and a very active Tau player on the 40K tournament scene in years past I have no interest in playing the Tau in their current epic guise.

For a while I quite liked the idea of Tau being able to double and shoot without the -1 to hit, or advance and shoot with +1 to hit if supported with a markerlight. That was something unique and seemed to make up for how poor they were in engagements as well as being quite Tau-like and promoted maneuver and combined arms. Then all to hit values were reduced by -1 and my interest waned again.

Shooting is little substitue for engagement power being as it is:

Reduced by blast markers,
Reduced by movement,
Reduced by terrain.
Does not allow you hackdown kills,
Does not break units automatically if you win.

I pretty much agree with Dobbsy and Onyx on the subject of the Tau but lack the neccessary post count for "Those in charge" to listen so pretty much don't bother anymore.

On the plus side, I have some Tau to sell if anyone wants them.

E&C, you did run some numbers before but you got it wrong and I did lay it all out for you but you seem to have forgotten.

The Tau scored 9 hits on the Marine formation (statistically accurate).
4 hits were taken on the Land Raiders killing 1 (statistically accurate). The fact that they were Crusaders is completely pointless to this discussion (and I have mentioned that before aswell).
5 hits were taken on the Tactical stands scoring 2 hits (more or less accurate), 1 of which was saved by the SC.

The damage done to the Tau is pointless to this discussion because I expected the Tau to lose the fight (as I've stated before).


We were playtesting a new list and I was not caught intermingled, all the ground formations were being transported by the Manta (I've mentioned that before aswell).

Ben, it's very simple really. The only thing that has changed is that the Manta might score 1 or 2 more hits and won't suffer the hackdown hits (which will just mean more dead ground units).

If people are happy with a Manta, 8 stands of Fire Warriors, 2 stands of pathfinders, 5 stands of Crisis Suits and 4 Hammerheads killing 1 Land Raider and 1 stand of Marines in a fire fight then the list is finished and there's nothing more to see here. If people think that just maybe the Tau should be doing a little more damage at one of the optimal firing ranges, then something needs to be discussed now before the list is locked again.

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Your numbers tell me that you got a little unlucky (5 hits, 1 kill, on 4+ saving throw units is simply below par)

Whilst the photo (Which I can't recall seeing before) tells me you were surrounded by 1700 points of units from a firefight specialist army (Marines). Also, you had BM's before starting and the Marines had none.
No wonder your 1500pts of intermingled units from a ranged firepower specialist army got destroyed.


Manta now fearless, Manta now has better FF, Manta now has a markerlight to help your units shoot, Crisis suits now have better shooting, Hammerheads now have better shooting (If they're Fusionheads) and are cheaper in points cost.

You're critisising a list (using as your example some poor tactical manoever on the part of the Tau against a FF specialist army using overpowered LRC units) that no longer exists.


That's a type of "being caught intermingled". You don't unload your troops and leave your Manta in a vulnerable position, you're going to get ganged up on and curbstomped.

Seems to me you were daring the Marines to take you in in a direct attrition fight, and that's not even how the Tau operate in the background.

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I have to agree with E&C on this issue. The Manta doesn't work as a transport and will probably IMO never work as a transport. If you positioned those units where being surrounded by that many marines was possible what did you expect was going to happen?

The current Tau list is the most enjoyable one I've played. It is I admit difficult to use and is probably always going to be difficult to use. I agree that shooting is almost always worse than engaging but remember it is also much less dangerous as your opponent can't fire back. That for me is exactly what the Tau would do and exactly how they should play. Try and cause maximum damage with minimum casualties. FF's carry greater risk and I think the Tau would try and avoid them.

Additionally the Tau can make very good engagement formations. 8 FW's and 3 broadsides are brilliant in an Orca. Yme-loc has used them to great effect.

To be fair though, do you guys still play on the same large open swathes of board with small terrain pieces like in the batreps you posted? Honestly, if you do then I'm not surprised Ryan is on a 6 game winning streak. I'm definitely not saying you or Ryan aren't excellent gamers here, just that this sort of thing has a great impact on a game and playing on terrain like that gives the Tau a big advantage as there's little place for the enemy to hide. Also IIRC you don't take much in the way of air power, is that right? Does Ryan use a gunline/castling tactic at all? How any games has he used a few of the 5-1 Recon groups? Do you use much in the way of Leman Russ armour companies?

I can't speak as to Yme-loc's luck with Tau as I can't seem to find any batreps from him. Again I don't doubt he's an excellent player.

Like I said there's many variables as to why these games are won but they don't seem to match with what Onyx and I seem to see. I'm no genius player but I've played almost nothing but Tau for years now and the recent list lacks. I'm hoping 6.3 changes that.

Ben, you keep stubbornly missing the point.
The winner of the engagement was never in doubt and has NOTHING to do with this discussion.
5 hits with 3 saved doesn't look so bad does it (in fact it looks completely accurate). The only real annomoly was the SC Inv Save.

If you could please stop repeating the improvements to the list that have nothing to do with my points this would look a lot clearer for everyone.

I didn't "unload your troops and leave your Manta in a vulnerable position". They unloaded as part of the Manta's countercharge. We were playtesting a new list and not trying solely to win at all costs. I'm not saying my tactics were wrong, simply that this situation needed to be played out so we could see what would happen.

So that it's clear I'll spell it out again.
The problem with the list at the moment (and none of the 6.3 changes will make a significant change to this) is that half a Tau army killed one Land Raider and one stand of Marines in a Fire Fight Engagement. That is not good enough. It does not fit in with any established Tau background. It does not fit in with the concept that an Engagement in Epic is equivalent to en entire game of 40K. Would a Manta, 4 Hammerheads, 15 crisis Suits (3 per stand), 40 Fire Warriors & 10 Pathfinders kill 1 Land Raider and 5 Marines in an average game of 40K?

This really isn't isn't complicated and it's not really up for debate. The present numbers don't stack up. We may have a balanced list but it just isn't a balanced Tau list.

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Being now in the MoD I can regale you with 'authentic' tales of troops from certain countries who are great at short range infantry firepower (i.e. firing at the enemy whilst they advance) but the second things start to close to what we would reguard as a firefight they simply either back off prior or break and run.

Is it really so anti tau that they would be like those nationalities?

'Would a Manta, 4 Hammerheads, 15 crisis Suits (3 per stand), 40 Fire Warriors & 10 Pathfinders kill 1 Land Raider and 5 Marines in an average game of 40K?'

Is that 40k where the entire game is a firefight or 40k background where tau would shoot them to bits as they closed, but if jumped at short range get slaughtered?