Hena, I don't think the stingray alone makes for a gunline, the sentry turrets are most of the issue. I know virtually everyone agress they should go, but until the list is changed they are there.

On a more positive note at least people are considering the Tau again!

And that's a little below where I pictured them to be when I proposed the Stingray (should have been between Whirlwind and Manticore), but I can live with Stingrays on par with Whirlies.

The reason that people buy Stingrays (and buy lots of them) is that they fill a *tactical* role in the Tau army.  Tau are the closest thing to a "modern" army in the largely WW2 armies of Epic.  A modern army needs weapons that do not require line of sight to the target from the firer (Air, Artillery, and Mortars).  The guiding principle of the Tau back in 3.x was "Tau don't have BP," so you need a non-BP way of shooting over terrain.  That's airpower and GMs (and Smart Missiles, but those are 30cm).  Tau don't have a way of killing infantry at long range, unless you start shooting the grunts instead of the Tanks with your railguns, which is a serious shortfall in capability.

However, I digress.

I think the real question to ask about the Tau-that-FF list idea is "What is the difference between the *feel* of Tau-that-FF and Eldar?"  If Tau-that-FF feels like Eldar that can't CC (or an Eldar army that forgot to bring CC Aspects), that's not the direction we should be going with the list.

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

The "Tau-that-FF" list is better armoured and better gunned than any Eldar army... the "similarities" are just that both are fairly fast and skim!

You can still make a Tau army that relies predominantly on "shooting" as a way of fighting, it's just that they can *also* excel in close range shooting/firefighting... you can't really make a "shooting" Eldar army that won't break apart if shot back at.

I think the "Feels like 2nd rate Eldar" concept is a red herring... they are both technologically advanced xenos races, so there will be some points of commonality... but Tau take elements from Orks, Imperial Guard, and Space Marines as well and make them their own.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

The reason that people buy Stingrays (and buy lots of them) is that they fill a *tactical* role in the Tau army.  Tau are the closest thing to a "modern" army in the largely WW2 armies of Epic.  A modern army needs weapons that do not require line of sight to the target from the firer (Air, Artillery, and Mortars).  The guiding principle of the Tau back in 3.x was "Tau don't have BP," so you need a non-BP way of shooting over terrain.  That's airpower and GMs (and Smart Missiles, but those are 30cm).  Tau don't have a way of killing infantry at long range, unless you start shooting the grunts instead of the Tanks with your railguns, which is a serious shortfall in capability.

However, I digress.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

well, yes and no.

Yes it's premature becuase his firewarriors differ in their basic statistics to the proposed final list

But it's work of moments to return them to their previous ratings and then add a free character to the variant list - say a herioc, battle hardened general.
Only effect the character has is to raise the FF of the Firewarriors in that formation due to specialist training. Cost to be defined as neccesary. (free ideally)

It also provides away to break the deadlock in the Tau dev group. People get far less defensive over their favourite unit if they know it'll reappear in the Variant instead.

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My shifting projects

In the game I played using Chroma every time the Tau used its FF to great effect the formation got wiped out in retaliation.

Sure using this list you can really hit hard with FF but if you don't have enough support near by they die real quick.

In the game I played using Chroma every time the Tau used its FF to great effect the formation got wiped out in retaliation.

Sure using this list you can really hit hard with FF but if you don't have enough support near by they die real quick.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

which makes sense.  I think though that Chroma is not looking at his list as a variant, but a different approach to the Core list from which variants could be built.  

The current core list (4.4.3) covers a multitude or army types and includes an above average number of units/formations.  To some, things feel stalled on this list.  One way to proceed would be to simplify that list by reducing special rules, units, and formations to a more manageable level, which is I think what Chroma is after (sorry if I am putting words in your mouth Chroma.) and frankly I think it is a great way to move forward as I have said in other threads.

Man, shmitty, you're seeing right through me today!  *laugh*

Yes, my proposal is presented as a *replacement* for the v4.x series, not a parallel/divergent development.  And, yes, it was presented to shake things up and get discussion started again, with me as the target of people's anger and frustration.  *laugh*

Thanks for all the excellent discusions, keep them up!  I'll put together an update once I've nailed down some more Tyranid stuff.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

which makes sense.  I think though that Chroma is not looking at his list as a variant, but a different approach to the Core list from which variants could be built.  

The current core list (4.4.3) covers a multitude or army types and includes an above average number of units/formations.  To some, things feel stalled on this list.  One way to proceed would be to simplify that list by reducing special rules, units, and formations to a more manageable level, which is I think what Chroma is after (sorry if I am putting words in your mouth Chroma.) and frankly I think it is a great way to move forward as I have said in other threads.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Honda, can I ask how my list has an "emphasis... on infantry"?

With my list, one could take three basic Fire Warrior Cadres for 600 points and then have 2400 points left to spend on tanks and aircraft if one so wished... I wouldn't call such an army "infantry focused", so I'm not sure what you mean.  

Is it just that you can't make an army with *no* infantry at all that's the issue?  You'd just like to see a "Tank Cadre" as a core choice in the "generic" Tau list?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

There are other ways to deal with Sentry Towers/Turrets rather than throw them away.

ANYONE reading the Tau fluff/background cannot deny the importance of the units to the way the Tau do war.

It is the ability to light up the enemies deployment zone that is the key game breaker for the present stats.

Making them a garrison unit, that has Scout and Fearless removes there brokenness and allows those that already have several packs of these things, to use them.

They become a backup to the the Pathfinders/Tetras etc, rather than a replacement for them.


With regard to this list, as a variant list it has some possibilities BUT as a replacement for the current Tau list, I cannot support this at all (for what my support is worth). I have too many units in my Tau army that are not in this list and I want to continue using them. We (my gaming group) do not find them to be broken.

Sorry Chroma, this isn't personal. I really like many of the lists you have developed and we use them often. On this subject though, I find myself agreeing with Honda. Let the basic list continue to fruition (as quickly as is practical) and go from there.

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Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Really?  Other than the Sentry Towers, I don't think I took anything out at all... what units did I neglect to include?!

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Stingray (I have 12), Scorpionfish (4) and Moray (2).

I don't really consider your replacements for the first 2 as usable for the Tau.

I also have 3 Barracudas (as was the formation size in the Tau list at the time of purchase). I would prefer the option to use all 3 in one formation (the other fighter was used to make an objective marker).

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Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.