8 4+ RA with a straight 5+ deflector means on average 48 hits to kill. Thats more than a warlord titan (who requires a minimum of 38 on average though of course recharging void shields can bring that up) and of course you move at 20cm which is a massive factor, allowing a double and deployment zone strike with all the main weapon systems - not to mention the planetfall.

Sure it can be tougher - but then you pay more points making abilities like planetfall proportionally more useful. Personally I would prefer a cheaper machine simply because it means you can get some air stuff which I see as very tau'e.

Hell I could be being a bit on the cheap side if you consider the multiplier affect of planetfalling - though it would cost an extra 150 for the Hero if it can't self do it. Maybe to avoid astronomical cost it would need a nasty critical or even to come down in DC!

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I must say, a DC10 craft together with an entire army (or 18 stands + vehicles) does seem rather OTT. Just land it somewhere in the middle of the table and Rail-gun out of existance something quite large

As ever, it is the combination of things here that make the whole rather excessive IMHO, in this case,
- A titan
- with lots of transported troops
- planetfall (or flying for that matter)

=========================

Has anyone tried this without planetfall but with a 25 cm movement? (So you will take two turns to arrive in the opponents zone)

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Note than in 40k the manta has a relatively weak armour profile (the same as a hellhound), unlike the 14 all round a warlord titan would have.

5+ reinforced, or 3+ basic are both better than 4+ R.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Hey,
I know the rules about the resilient attack craft.

You took that line out of context, the line above stated the Manta should be

So in my opinion, new rule, etc...

And yes, the Manta, while full of Firewarriors does not make hit and run attacks. Only bombing runs against enemy starships.

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http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19176

You sure zombo?
4+ is a 18/36 chance of saving, 5+ RA is a 20/36 chance of saving, 3+ a 24/36 chance of saving. 4+ RA is a 27/36 chance of saving. Though of course MW messes that up somewhat!

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@blackhorizon: Sorry didn't see that

But i bet the BFG Manta doesn't make his bombing run fully loaded with ground troops

Anf for reference the Imperial Armour Apocalypse stats:

Type: Super Heavy Flyer
Steucture Points: 10
BS: (2 for drone controled)4
Armour:13/12/11

Weapons:
1 Twin-Linked Heavy Railguns (110", StrD, AP1 Ordnance 1, Destroyer OR Str7, AP3 Ordnance 1, 10"Blast)
3 Twin-Linked Long Barelled Ion Cannons (90", Str7, AP3, Heavy 3)
1 Twin-Linked Missile Pod (36", Str7, Ap4, Assault2)
16 Drone Controlled Long Barelled Burst Cannons*  (36", Str5, AP5, Assault3)
10 Seeker Missiles (72", Str8, AP3, Heavy1)
Network Markerlight (as Markerlight but usable by the Manta itselfe)

Transport:
Upper Deck = 48 Infantry
Lowere Deck = 140 Infantry or up to 4 fully loaded Vehicles (each counts as 30 Infantry).
Crisis Suits would count as 2 or 3 Infantry dependant if you see them as Jumptroop- or Jetbikes-sized i guess. This is nowhere specified

Special Rules:
- Hover Mode
- Engery Shield (= 4+ Invulnerable Save)
- AA Fire: Due to it's size groundunits hit the Manta withtheir BS. They don't need 6s as for shooting at aircrafts.

*I guess 6 can only fire at aircraft due to positioning. This is not in the rules however.

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But it doesn't have thick rear armour and is relatively easy to crossfire.

Zombo in 40kid a Manta is much harder to kill than a warlord. Its an aircraft so ranges are reduced by 12" and it needs something like a 6 to hit it for most weapons.  I played againt your brothers Elysian list in 40kid and couldn't deal with his Valkyrie. I simply couldn't hit it. The Manta is much more difficult to kill than one of those. That must be worth at least 4+ reinforced.

I would like to see it with almost the same profile it has in the Forge World list. At the moment it is too cheap for the amount of weapons and special rules it has. In the game E&C mentioned earlier it was my Manta that took out his Warlord. First activation I planetfell opened up and it dropped. I admit it was a bit of a fluke. Almost everything hit and the Warlord was destroyed by a critical. But still. why can't the Manta be more of an assault giunship in the SG list? FW's with the SG stats are still better used in engagements than  shooting at enemy who are usually in cover.

By "better" I mean more apropriate. The manta should have worse armour than a titan, so 4+ RA is too good, 5+RA or 3+ are better choices.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Remember that 40k ranges are firefight ranges. The manta should be hard to kill in a firefight, but that doesn't mean it should be hard to kill with missiles from miles away.

Remember, vultures and valkyries also have the aircraft rule in 40k, and they don't get a bonus to their armour in epic.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

@Jstr19: Look at my above posting. The Manta is to big to be hit only on a 6.

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I have tried the stats that TRC suggests and I found that the Manta was actually punished for getting too close to the enemy. The stats encourage longrange sniping. I'm not sure I would actually use free planetfall as I can double and still hit the enemy deployment zone with less risk. I think that we should attempt to follow the design philospohy in the Tau codex books a bit more closely than we have and to this end I would keep its armour the same, remove some of its guns, drop its price by 100pts, and remove free planetfall. So a planetfalling manta will cost about 900pts.

OK, let's step back and ask a slightly different question.  What stats *should* the Manta have, ignoring Self-planetfall?

A Manta (in 40k) is armed between a Warhound and a Reaver titan.  It only has one Titan-killing weapon system on it, but also has the multiple Ion cannons (which are anti-infantry/LV, not really AT weapons in 40k) and the defensive burst cannons and missile pods.  One long-range Anti-titan weapon (twin-linked Railcannon), one long-range anti-personnel/LV weapon (3x twin-linked Ion Cannons), and a smattering of AP/LV defensive weapons (roughly 4 in any given arc of fire).  That's NOT a Warlord's armament.  In fact, that's lighter armament than a Reaver.

Transport capability:  4 vehicles, plus a lot of infantry.  188 infantry in 40k (sacrificing any transported vehicles), 16 infantry stands in 4.4.3.  That's only 33% more than the infantry capacity of a Landing Craft (LC holds 12 stands), with fewer tanks (unless 2 HHeads + 2 DFish = 4 Land Raiders). (By the way, Piranhas take up the same space as a DFish in IA3, but I understand the need to make the force useful in E:A)

So, what we've got in 40k is a vessel that has much lighter armor than an Imperial Titan, but is bigger (due to the transport bay).  It's more lightly armed than a Reaver, and carries roughly the same troop+vehicle payload as a Marine Landing Craft.  As far as cost goes, I'm thinking Reaver + SMLC, and adjusting from there.  Reaver is 650, SMLC is 350.  Anyone think the Manta (empty) is actually worth 1k points?

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I can see where you are going LiTS, but I think you may have the maths slightly wrong. You only need to add the Reaver weapons onto the SMLC 'chassis' rather than adding the cost of both titans together. If you check back to the Pseudo science for titans, you can get a very rough calculation, which allowing for lots of power, moderate armour and the weapons suggested comes out around the 850 points mark.

However, I do like what people are starting to suggest:- Weaker weapons and armour on a large transport. So I would go with DC8, Armour 5+ RA, and drop the interceptor and Tracer missiles. This gives you a moderately robust Transport that is probably better deployed at a distance from major enemy concentrations, though it can mount a serious assault if necessary.

I am still unsure about allowing planetfall of any description both because it seems to go against Tau philosophy to use these in close assault, and also because it is so powerfull. OTOH, even at 750 points, you would still expect it to hurt, and by the time you have put several formations on-board, you expect a force of 1500 points to hurt a lot!! But after it has supported two assaults, the Manta and this bunch of Tau are then going to be counter-attacked big-time and will suffer. So perhaps we should follow Napoleon's suggestion here and not interrupt an opponent who is making a mistake.

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Well, a Manta does currently have the weapons and DC of a Reaver+SMLC, and the Transport capacity of the SMLC.  I'll take a look at the Titan Psuedo-science again, though.

Ah, I gotta go prep for a History of China test (2300bc to Tienamen Square).  May have thoughts again Sunday...

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