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Discussions on the Tau.
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:02 pm 
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What do you mean "hard 0-1 limit"? It's no more hard than 1 per 3 cadres, except that it's easier to handle? Besides it scales quite well. The restriction isn't 0-1, but 0-1 per firewarrior cadre.


It's been proposed that you can only have one type of aux in an army, no matter the size of army... that's a 'hard' limit.

Except that they aren't used in large enough numbers that they should be shown.

Yeah they are. :)

Taros happened before the 3rd expansion after all...

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:25 pm 
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For Crisis suits I would like to see them with 2 Long range shots and a Macro Weapon FF. The old rule used to have them with one shot per model on the base which appeared a bit overgunned. I also still think that the jet pack rule needs to be changed. The current rule makes them in theory the fastest unit in te game with a movement determined by how many times they get assaulted. If they get a rule whereby they can jump back 10cm after they have shot makes it easier for your opponent to predict where they will be and maybe even manage to assault them occasionally.

I  have taken to using lots of Jetpack troops in my army to maximise my activations and they really annoy E&C because he can't seem to do a damn thing about them. They shoot up his formations and allow me to draw crossfires with Morays and HH's without any risk to themselves. A modified rule would enable people to more easily counter them.
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:26 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 21 2008,17:02)
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What do you mean "hard 0-1 limit"? It's no more hard than 1 per 3 cadres, except that it's easier to handle? Besides it scales quite well. The restriction isn't 0-1, but 0-1 per firewarrior cadre.


It's been proposed that you can only have one type of aux in an army, no matter the size of army... that's a 'hard' limit.

It sounds like there is some confusion here.

For example, if I have two Fire Warrior Cadres in my force, I can then have up to two auxiliary formations, but they both need to be the same type - both Kroot, for example.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:56 pm 
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For example, if I have two Fire Warrior Cadres in my force, I can then have up to two auxiliary formations, but they both need to be the same type - both Kroot, for example.


That's a hard limit and I don't like it.

It says that even at 5kpts you can only have one type of aux... when you can have two or three types of aux in a 1500pt game of 40k.



For Crisis suits I would like to see them with 2 Long range shots and a Macro Weapon FF. The old rule used to have them with one shot per model on the base which appeared a bit overgunned.

Sounds fine by me, as long as your second proposal goes through:

I also still think that the jet pack rule needs to be changed. The current rule makes them in theory the fastest unit in te game with a movement determined by how many times they get assaulted. If they get a rule whereby they can jump back 10cm after they have shot makes it easier for your opponent to predict where they will be and maybe even manage to assault them occasionally.

This would be perfect (Jstr19 tends to play it this way already most of the time, otherwise his Crisis-heavy army walks over nigh-every army he faces in our group).

And as said, I think this works well with giving the Crisis Suits their MW FF attack back (Whilst dropping the ranged MW attack).

MW FF with the existing jetpack rule was of course heinously broken, whilst the current situation (Normal FF with the jetpack rule as-is) is just moderately broken.


I  have taken to using lots of Jetpack troops in my army to maximise my activations and they really annoy E&C because he can't seem to do a damn thing about them. They shoot up his formations and allow me to draw crossfires with Morays and HH's without any risk to themselves. A modified rule would enable people to more easily counter them.

Aye, Jstr's win/loss ratio in our gaming circle must be close to 80% wins / 20% losses... and not just against me.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:58 pm 
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CS, I don't see a 'drone auxilliary' as discluding the Kroot and Humans entirely.  Allow drones as upgrades to Tau formations as usual (like the network drones).  But the formations that would potentially become Drone Auxilliaries would Gun Drone formations, Markerlight Sentry formations, and anything else you felt like putting in the auxilliary list.  You could also allow the drone flyers as allowable only when playing those auxilliaries, or other similar mechanic.  It would be fairly easy to work.

This would allow an entirely different feel for each auxilliary and I can easily see the Tau not wanting to throw away their their drones on 'lesser races' like the Kroot and Humans when those races can be used as screening formations instead.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:01 pm 
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Allow drones as upgrades to Tau formations as usual (like the network drones)


I'd just remove the networked drone upgrade. :)

It's unnessesary to the list.

Other than that, good points.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:28 pm 
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Personally I'd like to see drones abstracted into part of the units' stats.

Sheild Drones
Type: Character
Notes: Invulnerable Save

Available as a cheap upgrade for just about every unit.

This would also make collecting Tau armies cheaper, as you could fill out bases with drones as well as other models.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:46 pm 
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i like that idea of zombocoms it might work, and i really think the jetpack rule needs to be changed in some way because at the moment they are way to fast.

and i think that you should have rules for the models FW make before you try to fill "gaps" in the list, because how do you know if there is a gap in the first place.

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:34 am 
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Are you sure you would all be happy to see FW's with an invun save?
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Pulsar
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:39 am 
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it might be better than the current one that don't give the unit any BM if i kill them and make the formations larger

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:39 am 
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Yeah, the Drone's grot rule (Although kinda fluffy) does get annoying on Crisis suits, getting them half way to ATSKNF. :-/

Let's remove everything and call the Tau the 'Ghost' army. :D

Really, most of the list is fine! :)

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:20 am 
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I would be concerned with crisis suits being a bit too fragile without "operation get behind the robots". Macro shots would rip them appart. I understand that with the current rules you have been having trouble stopping the suits but I can't help but think their must be a middle ground between the rule as it stands and dropping them completely.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:22 am 
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Aye, one or two changes at a time, not ten. :)

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Onyx
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:21 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 22 2008,17:22)
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Aye, one or two changes at a time, not ten. :)

I agree with that!  :)

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:11 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 21 2008,00:18)
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The Moray is something I like better than the Scorpfish, but both ideas are mentioned briefly in GW fluff, not fanfic.


The attack-Orca (Scorpionfish) mentioned in the fluff is (Correct me if I'm wrong) listed as an offensive and mobile bomber, not a stationary 'virtually unkillable' missile platform for the SC to hide in.


I think the Scorpfish could use a bit of tweaking (it doesn't have to be a 'flying Superheavy tank', as I don't really see the Tau making use of such vehicles). ?During the design phase, one of the ideas that was kicked around was an 'Orca Gunship' like the AC130 Spectre.


In comparison to the vehicle we have, that sounds kinda cool: An upgunned Orca which sacrifices its transport capacity for a bunch of shots.

But then it's just one more bomber amongst many aircraft, and just looks extraneous to needs again.
An Orca Gunship is not extraneous to needs exactly.  It fits in a niche between the AX10 (rare, dedicated titan-killer) and the Manta.  The Orca gunship (AC130 style) would need to be slower than aircraft (gunships have a very different attack profile that's closer to being a Support Craft than to being an aircraft, not to mention they're a lot slower than ground-attack aircraft), but well armed and *effectively* well armored (due to defensive systems more than airframe toughness).  Wow, that sounds an awful lot like the Scorpfish as it exists now.

The attack-Orca (Scorpionfish) mentioned in the fluff is (Correct me if I'm wrong) listed as an offensive and mobile bomber, not a stationary 'virtually unkillable' missile platform for the SC to hide in.

The 'Orca bomber' is mentioned once, in a single sentence, with no real description of operational style, unfortunately.

To be honest, I argued against Tau superheavies back then.  I saw (and still see) Tau using aircraft-carried Tracer Missiles to deal with Titans/SHTs, not building an overgrown 'helicopter gunship' to deal with them, but I was over-ruled.  *shrug*

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