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HecklerMD	Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:16 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201	@ Hena Agreed, ML Dropped. @ Tactica: "Things you like" Cool "Things your on the Fence" "Variable munitions launcher" But, your a Navy guy!    (Please tell me I remembered your branch correctly!)  Actually, that has little to do with it other than its inspired by the various verticly launched Navy munitions (SM2, Tomahawks, Trident ect)  "Networked Markerlight (all FW SH fliers come with them)" I kinda figure were off the reservation with the SH Tau Grav Tank thing. "Things you dont like" "FF of 6+ is out of character - FF5+ seems right." I'm looking at that being more incentive to keep the unit back and lob missiles into the fray, rather than putting the boot in. "6+ to hit values on all missles"   (stingray has better AP at 2x AP5+) Typo, fixed. "Range + speed = less than railhead."   (I'm looking for at least 100cm range without moving) I'm trying to use our already established GMs. Here is the updated/corrected version, using the feedback I've gotten: ------------------------------- Scorpionfish Speed       Armor     CC     FF 25cm          5+        6+     6+ 4 x Variable Munitions Launcher          75cm         AT6+  Guided Missile  OR                                                     75cm         2x AP5+ Guided Missile Ignore Cover OR                                                     75cm         MW6+ Guided Missile, One Shot 2x Twin Linked Missile Pod                 45cm         AT4+/AP4+ Damage Capacity 2.  Critical Hit Effect:  Munitions Store is hit, vehicle explodes.  All Units within 5CM suffer 1 hit on a D6 roll of 6. Notes:  Skimmer, Reinforced Armor. The Scorpionfish may fire a maximum of 4 Guided Missiles (Seekers, Submunitions Missiles, Tracers, or a mix) per turn;  Up to 4 Tracers can be fired per game. ------------------------------------ I'm also considering the implications of putting this unit on OW early in turn 1:  With good ML coverage you could tag a rushing Ork or IG formation early in the game, give them a bloody nose, and put off moving other units (sorta like an activation advantage?) untill later.  If its Marines and they stay in transports, heh, might wanna use them Tracers then? My opponents are starting to avoid MLs.  They are starting to Fear them.   Last, @ TRC Names.  Agree, sorta. Wikipedia Fish Names I'm partial to "Arrowtooth" (Eel) for no other reason than it sounds cool.
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Tactica	Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:50 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Heckler, well - now that the typo is fixed ...and considering yours and others comments, i could give this a go and back off of my hopeful persepctive on this thing for the time being. I'm still not big on the 'keeping track of shots' bit with this suggestion and think the MW idea is easier, but the variety and cool factor of all the missles has an appeal - I'll admit it. So, I can del with the on-shot in playtest. I'll give you this - I definitely like it better than what we currently have! Are we thinking 2 for 375? SC upgrade for +100? PS - yep, Navy. I with you on the Trident...that's just an amazingly destructive piece of ordinance there. Costal cities beware! Cheers, _________________ Rob
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:36 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Arrowtooth sounds cool to. Bullhead would be someting that crashes into your lines I guess! 40k wise - I've been beaten to it. I know some of the background but haven't a clue on the rules so tend to go from the stated intention not the actual stats. Missile wise what sort of practical difference does picking AP and AT over MW have statistically? Do you aim to do the same damage? The biggest difference is MW takes out everyhting, and is good vs elites, AP and AT however has a performance defined by the opponents armour (which is quite good balance wise). _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Honda

Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:04 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

@ Heckler I can support the path this discussion is on except: Notes: ?Skimmer, Reinforced Armor. The Scorpionfish may fire a maximum of 4 Guided Missiles (Seekers, Submunitions Missiles, Tracers, or a mix) per turn; ?Up to 4 Tracers can be fired per game Please don't make us count how many rockets we shot. Just give us the missiles and cost it appropriately. This is an unnecessary complicaton to a very clean solution. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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CyberShadow	Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:29 pm
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9349 Location: Singapore	While I like the concept of this, I do feel that we already have some perfectly adequate 'missile boats' in the list already. However, if this did go ahead, I do not necessarily see why any missiles should be limited capacity. On such a potentially large vehicle, there should be plenty of space for munitions and the extra worry about keeping track of missile use on the unit is something that I would like to avoid. _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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HecklerMD	Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:24 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201	OK, I'm not that stubborn .  Dropping "One-Shot" So, that leaves us with a question:  What do we do with the Seekers?  Vs. any AV the Tracer is the better missile, so why bother?  (TRC this address your last point)  Vs. most infantry, particularly Inf in cover, Subs would be my choice over Tracers, but Vs. AV its a no-brainer. SO, we can either: A) Drop the Seekers, 'cause they wont get used anyway.. or b) Bump the Seekers # of shots up to 8X, like the Subs.  This is kinda a hack, but it allows those facing lots of low-save armor (Orks, IG) to weigh the possibilities of more-hits=more kills over no-saves. Opinions? I appreciate all the consideration this idea is getting from you guys.
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clausewitz

Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:53 am

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Are we sticking with the variable launcher idea? While I like the concept of this, I do feel that we already have some perfectly adequate 'missile boats' in the list already. What would distinguish this from other missile platforms would be multiple Tracers Missiles.  No other vehicle has that capability, and as the Tau "SHT" that would seem to be the right platform for those heavier payload missiles (IG, Eldar, BL SHTs frequently having MW/TK weapons).

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HecklerMD	Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:38 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201	Latest Version: ------------------------------- Arrowtooth (Scorpionfish) Type                  Speed       Armor     CC     FF War Engine        25cm          5+        6+     6+ 4 x Variable Munitions Launcher:                         (Seekers)                        75cm         2x AT6+ Guided Missile  OR                         (Submunitions Missiles)    75cm         2x AP5+ Guided Missile Ignore Cover OR                         (Tracers)                         75cm         MW6+ Guided Missile 2x Twin Linked Missile Pod                 45cm         AT4+/AP4+ Damage Capacity 3.  Critical Hit Effect:  Munitions Store is hit, vehicle explodes.  All Units within 5CM suffer 1 hit on a D6 roll of 6. Notes:  Skimmer, Reinforced Armor. ------------------------------------ ... Or we drop the Seekers altogether....?   I upped the DC to 3 to reflect a lottle more possable internal bracing, and to make it harder to suppress/break, in order to distingush it further from our other missile boats. Speaking of which... @CS  To be honest, the Stingray is out only true GM "Missile Boat" that can operate in its own formation.  Skyray, yes, that too, but its an add-on and is kinda diluted.  Put the two together and you get an effective stand-off, non los GM formation.  The Arrowtooth (Working name only) will have some similiraties (Subs/Seekers, though not both at the same time), and some big differences (Tracers, WE advantages) For the rest of the army, GMs (Seekers) are kinda an afterthought:  A AMHC needs a pretty good reason to hide behind a hill and only shoots its Seekers, the rest of its firepower being unused. So when asking "Do we need another missile boat" I say "Cant hurt" and when you ask "Do we need a new ScF" I say "Yes."
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:30 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Points wise how much were you thinking? (And I really think that should be for 2, one to give a formation fired at the understanding they had been shot, the second to stop them adding to the Tau activation count in a big way, oh and three so they can have a slight discount like Imperial SHT's.) Just for the min max'ers amoung you on a markerlit target a formation of two delivers on a double 1 1/3MW - 2 2/3AT - 5 1/3AP, advance 2 2/3MW - 5 1/3AT - 8AP, Sustain 4MW - 8AT - 10 2/3 So the MW missiles are pretty much obsolete here. Even against a 4+ target (RA or otherwise) you have the same chance with AT mssiles of getting a kill and against any armour weaker than 4+ the AT missiles are better. Against infantry its the same story with the difference that AP missiles are better in ever case except 3+ where they are equal. Finally again cost wise how much for something that on sustain can wipe out an infantry company I do think just MW missiles gives it an elite feel, provides something different to the pathfinders and hover tanks it supports, and allows you to keep the stat line simple Other way of simplifying it is just to write 8 variable munitions - Range 75cm, AP5+/AT6+, Guided Missile (as that is what it effectively says currently). Oh - and instead of missile pods, why not instead give it markerlights and smart missiles (or just markerlights considering the performance above re. infantry)? I presume the missile pods are close in defence and the above would cover infantry and allow the main missiles to be used effectively. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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HecklerMD

Post subject: V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:04 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201

@ TRC Finally again cost wise how much for something that on sustain can wipe out an infantry company Stingray Formation Vs 1 Arrowtooth:  Both can do 8x AP3+ Ignore Cover on Sustain Vs. a Marked Target;  In addition, Stingrays add in 4 AT4+ seekers at the same target, usefull Vs various Mech Units, and other mixed, inf based formations (Tacs/Devs w/ Dreds, Orks w/ Kans, ect), which the Arrowtooth cant match in the same turn. Seeing as the shooting abilities are similar to a 250 pt Stingray formation, thats where I would start. However, we dont really have as much firepower as a Stingray formation, we can match its GM AP shooting, or exceetd its GM AT shooting, but we cant shoot 8x AP AND 4x AT shots like the Stingray formation can.  Next, as a WE it is less suseptable to Supression, but at 3 DC it can be broken easier.  RA makes it tougher, no real comparison there, though (at least how I use the Stingrays/intend to use the Arrowtooth) they tend to stay out of LOS or far enough back that the opponent has other targets to vie for its attention. I think it falls in the 200-225 apiece range, so for a formation of 2, to avoid activation bloat, thats in the 400-450 range. Now, Imperial SHTs get a rough 16.6% discount when you take a Co. of them:  In addition, you gain 3 support formations.  The Arrowtooth takes away from the number of support formations, not a huge issue but not one to ignore.  Starting in the middle, at 425 pts for 2, a 16.6% discount takes off 70.55 pts,round up to 75. So... 350pts for 2, work from there?  Points-wise, we are entering AMHC territory now, so lets see how it compares to a bare-bones AMHC, roughly: 2 of these can put out: 16xAP5/4/3+ Ignore Cover shots, OR 16xAT6/5/4+ shots, Or 8xMW6/5/4 shots (VMLs/GMs) Plus: 6xAT4/3+ shots OR 6xAP4/3 shots (TLMP) 6 DC, 5+ RA, 6x6+ FF in engage, CC=NA 3 BM to supress 50%, 6 BM to break. Dependant on ML from other unts. 1 in 36 chance per hit for crit: result destroys 1 unit and breaks formation. AMHC, all Rails: 6xAP4/3+ shots OR 6xAT3/2+ shots (Rails) Plus: 6xAT6/5/4+ shots (Seekers) Plus: 6xAP4/3+ Ignore Cover shots (SMS) 6DC, 4+ save, 6x5+ FF in engage, CC=NA 1 BM to supress 16.6%... 3 BM to supress 50%, 6 BM to break. Less dependant on MLs. Paraphrase:  8x Seekers > 4x Tracers

Argh.  I see your point.  I really wanted to keep the variety of GMs we have, though.  Which gave birth to the whole "One-Shot" thing....

I'd rather have a clean stat line, however.

VML:  75cm  4xMW6+ Guided Missiles / 8x AP5+ Guided Missiles, Ignore Cover

-------------------------------
Arrowtooth (Scorpionfish)
Type                  Speed       Armor     CC     FF
War Engine        25cm          5+        6+     6+

Variable Munitions Launcher      75cm  4xMW6+  OR   Guided Missiles
                                            75cm  8xAP5+          Guided Missiles, Ignore Cover
2x Twin Linked Missile Pod        45cm  AT4+/AP4+

Damage Capacity 3.  Critical Hit Effect:  Munitions Store is hit, vehicle explodes.  All Units within 5CM suffer 1 hit on a D6 roll of 6.
Notes:  Skimmer, Reinforced Armor.
-------------------------------

I dont want to give it MLs as I want it to depend on other units for maximum effect.

Secondary weapons, right now, are just that-secondary.  I want to get the VML right first.

Thanks for your feedback.

If anyone wants to give this a try, please do; My next game is not till the 28th.  Cant try it out till then.