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It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:40 pm 
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Quote (Hena @ 08 Feb. 2006 (12:18))
Yes. But show me another plane with TK weapon.


Have you read the Black Templars or Saim-Hann lists recently, they both have proposals for flying TK death machines.

Tiny

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Steele
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:08 pm 
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Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 08 Feb. 2006 (13:40))
Quote (Hena @ 08 Feb. 2006 (12:18))
Yes. But show me another plane with TK weapon.


Have you read the Black Templars or Saim-Hann lists recently, they both have proposals for flying TK death machines.

Tiny

Can You elaborate?

Steele

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clausewitz
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:26 pm 
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The Black Templars have the Thunderhawk Annihilator with a 45cm TK(D3) main weapon.  Saim-Hann have the Vampire Hunter with its "flying scorpion" MW (not TK) Pulse main gun (30cm range last time I checked).

Thunderhawk Annihilators (THA) cost 250 points and are the same stats as a Thunderhawk but without transport capacity (and different guns of course).

The Vampire Hunter comes in formations of 2 for 500 Points, and is similar to the Vampire Raider, but without transport.

Both are in as-yet-published lists.  Both have RA.  The THA is a dedicated WE-hunter, while the Vampire Hunter can deal with most targets pretty well.

Of course, the AX-1-0 has two TK shots, so perhaps the question should have been "show me another plane with two TK shots"  :D
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:08 pm 
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Also, the vampire hunter has raised just as much ire as the the AX-1-0 has (and the only reason it hasn't been "fixed" is that the army campion is MIA (I think he worked?for SG, and that past tense on work is probably relevant). I was under the impression that the cost of a Vampire Hunter was steadily increasing. Also, I'm pretty sure that Phantom titans were dropped from that particular list (for fluff reasons).

As for the T-hanwk Annihilator, it fills in for titans, which aren't allowed in the list - i.e. it is the only TK allowed in that list. Also, marines suck, so no one complained too much about it (not too much, but a little still).

So, I just had a great idea: if the fluff says there aren't that many AX-1-0's around (which is what Honda's post implies), why not drop it from the list entirely? Then, come up with a sublist to put it in, like all the other races have to do. I mean, I want a Vampire Hunter in my vanilla eldar list, but it isn't going to happen. I suggest it's time for the Tau players suck it up and deal with the possibility that you don't have to cram every last tau weapon system into the list (and don't just drop the less flashy stuff like the drone towers).

Maybe that is too harsh/blunt. I dunno. I need some caffiene.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:32 pm 
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That is a bit harsh, but we forgive you. :p

Then, come up with a sublist to put it in, like all the other races have to do.


My understanding is that the Tau list is supposed to represent the Taros Campaign, which is exactly where the AX-1-0 was used.  This is like the "generic" Biel Tan Eldar list including the Voidspinner EoV that is specific to that craftworld.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:07 pm 
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Although it is interesting that the other two "heavy-hitting" flyers are in lists that do not have access to their respective big WEs (Warlord/Reaver, Phantom).
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Steele
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:59 pm 
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Quote (clausewitz @ 08 Feb. 2006 (17:07))
Although it is interesting that the other two "heavy-hitting" flyers are in lists that do not have access to their respective big WEs (Warlord/Reaver, Phantom).

Yes, but we are Tau , we don?t have any assault oriented Formations , we don?t have any Titans and we don?t have any Armor that is over the top. And we don?t have any other TK weapons beside the Support Crafts , which cannot avoid combat.
And because of this , we rely on superior Firepower to vanquish those who do not want to be part of the Greater Good.


Cheers!
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Honda
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:58 pm 
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Sniping. AFAIK that is allowed (eg. plow inside a formation to fire a specific target). That simple fact means that one plane and one run could kill a swarm costing (460/500) points.

Swarms consists of:
1 Hive Tyrant (100 points)
4 Haruspex (4 * 50 points)
4 Carnifex (4 *35/50 points)

All you have to do is snipe the tyrant out and unless I can get the swarm to safety it will be killed. But even without that. You can kill ~1 per turn. Now add what ever fire Tau can generate on one target anyways, that formation might not ever reach the other side of the table.


Ok, you loaded the question with a large number of points that could die if you lose the synapse. So, on the other side of the spectrum, where's the AA Zoie?

Tactica has already posted a batrep where the Bug player brought lots of AA and dared him to attack. He did and it was painful and suddenly 5 TS weren't quite as effective.

Again, we're talking about TWO Tigersharks in a 2700 point list.

See you all on Page 18.   :p






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Ginger
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:07 pm 
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Guys

Not being a "fluff" adict, perhaps I am missing something here, that Steele has touched on.

Are you suggesting that the 4.3.3 version of the TS is actually supposed to fulfill the role of the missing Titans? The stats for a pair certainly match up pretty well with a pair of Revenants / Warhounds in terms of firepower, and the reduced DC armour reflects the reduced number of opponents that can potentially cause them harm. If this is indeed the case, then these (and the other flying "Titans") should be priced accordingly, and kept as a pair.

I understand my earlier 'thowaway' points costs were high - but they actually fulfill two roles here, reflecting rarity, potential effect and also balancing out the number of activations available.

Honda's formation limitation approach also works to some extent, but IMO ultimately fails to scale smoothly. Compare the E:A Steel legion list which stipulates a maximum irrespective of the army size with the Eldar list that just relies on points to limit number.

I thought you wanted to have an increasing number depending upon army size. However, if you wanted to make 1 pair of the current TS the limit for all Tau armies, at a modest price of say 850 points ?- - - :laugh:

Joking apart - do you want to have a variable number of the things, or just 1 or 2 per army? ?

Regards

Ginger

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Steele
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:29 pm 
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@Ginger,

no , I don?t think that the TS is here to fulfill the Role of a Titan , but it may come close. But every other time people seem to forget that. Like the Marines , which resources are even scarcer, we don?t have the massed MW or TK power of other races , so we are defined by Firepower. That this must be kept in some Way is clear , but to an extent where the Model will become obsolete or unwanted? I don?t dare thinking how much fun I?m letting go every time I have to review the threads or changed stats about this one , rather than playtesting it I?m sitting at the PC and hope to find a solution myself or read one from you Guys, but nothing changes....
And like Honda said , and me before : See You on Page 18 :D

Cheers!
Steele

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Ginger
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:47 pm 
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I see you and Honda are hopless pessimists - or Golfing nuts - or both - -  :laugh:

G

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:24 pm 
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Oh boy, here we go again!  :D

A couple of (important, I think) points.

1. The Tau do not take Titans. There was always the assumption that the heavy fliers would partially fill this role. I would like to see the AX-1-0 move more towards the Revenant operation. That being said, it is enevitable that the Tau list has some good fliers. To answer a previous point, three Zoanthropes may be enough for most armies and you may want more against the Tau. However, you could turn that around and say that playing against the Tau you need a handful of MW, but you will need more against the Imperial Guard.

I do take that the point that the enemies should not have to design their force to deal with the tau as a unique force and an army tailored for a general opponent should be able to deal with the Tau without finding it considerably more difficult than another enemy force.

2. We are in danger of going around in circles again. We accept that the AX-1-0 needs alteration, but no-one wants the stats changed and people are wary of a points hike.

There are three options to us:

Limited Numbers - I still feel that this is a last resort issue. Stating that a unit is unbalanced, but limited in numbers does not work. I am prepared to limit the numbers, but at the final stage, and when we have the stats ironed out already. Also, if we decide to limit numbers, I favour a straight 'single formation per army', and will need a LOT convincing to make this a 'one formation per x points'.

Something has to give ladies and gents. Either the points go up (perhaps considerably), or the stats are toned down... or both. I am currently favouring making the primary weapons 2xMW4+ without TK, and even then perhaps increasing the points to 200 each.

I am resigned to the knowledge that I will need to make a decision that will not please some here, but there does not seem any other option.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:28 am 
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I am resigned to the knowledge that I will need to make a decision that will not please some here, but there does not seem any other option.

It's good to be the king  ???

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dysartes
 Post subject: It is time to let "5 Aces" go...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:01 am 
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CS> As I think you're aware, there's no way you can make a decision that'll please everyone. However, a decision needs to be made, and you're the man to do it.

If nothing else, put out three (random figure) different versions, and ge people to test them. At least that'll get the ball rolling :)

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