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Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Tactica

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:10 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Honda,

On page 3, you had brought up the suggestion. Clausewitz and I were the only ones to comment and both agreed that it shouldn't cause problems and is worth testing. However, a formal recomendation of which missles should swap in its place was never presented. Why don't we cover it now and get the ball rolling if you like.

I have a 'feeling' that the current load out is not going to be as valuable as a regular scorpionfish and the loss of one SC roll should make it over priced right now compared to what it was. However, without playtest - we can't really comment one way or the other. We need to see if its under powered from results rather than just on paper. Who knows, might be just right as is... I doubt it, but I've been suprised before.

Cheers,

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Honda

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:12 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Sooo....a formal process gets initiated how? I may end up taking one for my game this week and I think it would be nice if I could show it in print, though I don't know that it's a requirement.

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Honda

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colonel_sponsz

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:43 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:14 pm
Posts: 390

[quote="Honda,11 Nov. 2005 (21:12)"][/quote]
Sooo....a formal process gets initiated how?

I think it goes a little like this:

I may end up taking one for my game this week and I think it would be nice if I could show it in print, though I don't know that it's a requirement.

Orde

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Tactica

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:18 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Honda (& Col_Sp),

LOL - fine, I'll make the suggestion to get the discussion going.

Reason for this consideration:

1) The v4.1 Dragon Fish lost the extra Supgreme Commander ability when moving into the main Tau WIP v4.2.4 list by popular request. No points adjustment was made during this transition. With 2 SC rolls, it was probably a bargin, but in absence of one of those SC rerolls, its now argued to be somewhat overpriced now for its impact/value to the list. Instead of lowering the price of the dragonfish, a weapons increase has been requested by several players and is reasonably worth considering to make it a bit more effective.
v4.1
REMOVED - Extra Supreme Commander

2) The v4.1 ion-cannon is effective AP4+/AT4+/AA6+ on this vehicle, however it requires a bit of a pain in the arse model conversion. More importantly, the ion-cannon really doesn't make sense on the model as the Dragonfish is an upgrade for a support role tank in a pseudo Tau artillery formation... A weapon consideration should take the role of the tank into account.
v4.1
REMOVED - ion cannon 60cm AP4+/AT4+/AA6+

So to get discussion started on this topic. I propose (red is new):

*PROPOSED* Dragon Fish
Weapons ? ?Range ? ?FirePower ? ?Notes
2x Twin-linked Burst Cannons ?15cm AP4+ ?-
Tracer Missiles ?75cm ?MW6+ Guided Missiles
Submunitions Missiles ?75cm ?2x AP5+ ?Guided Missiles, Ignore Cover
Hunter Missiles ?75cm ?AT6+/AA6+ ?Guided Missiles

Damage Capacity 3, Tau Deflector Shield, Critical Hit Effect: The Communications Array is severed and the Dragonfish loses the Supreme Commander ability for the rest of the game. Further critical hits cause no further effect.

Notes: Skimmer, Reinforced Armour, Supreme Commander

When compared to the Narwhal that its replacing, it wouldn't have the 2x ignore cover SMS and the GM Seeker that the Narwhal carries.

A) Is this what you guys had in mind?

B) Are we in favor or opposed to giving this a try?

C) Thoughts?

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Honda

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:05 am

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Works fine for me.

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Honda

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Icon-Of-Sin

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:22 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:38 am
Posts: 66
Location: Italy.

Not bad... I'll try it... But, really... What I liked of the Dragon is gone!!! I really liked my SC protected by a Tau Deflector Shield!!!

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Tactica

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:47 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Icon, the deflector is still there!

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Tactica

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:35 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Only 2 responses, kinda light - any others want to weigh in?

Oppossed or worth a try - any comments?

If we have no further comments, then we'll put in the proposed in the next WIP rev for folks to chew on.

Cheers,

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Rob

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clausewitz

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:12 pm

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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Hmm.. DC3, Deflector, RA, Skimmer, Supreme Commander and now fairly decent weapons.. for 200 points?

Given that SC ability usually costs about 100 points it seems you get a lot for the points. 100 points buys a Land Raider, which is no match for the Dragonfish.

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Nerroth

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:13 pm

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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Canada

I like the look of the modification so far...

Bear in mind that an SC on board a War Engine such as a Dragonfish won't be throwing itself into the line of fire, more likely taking up a similar kind of support bombardment role as a Stingray formation has - and therefore the use it would have for initiating Co-ordinated Fire actions after the first turn (and there are plenty of weapon types out there which can put paid to DC3 War Engines, in any event)

Of course, there is one other optional additon to the DF I want to see... but as Tactica says, I'll leave it out in the aether for the time being.

Gary

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clausewitz

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:44 am

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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Quote (Nerroth @ 12 Nov. 2005 (22:13))

...(and there are plenty of weapon types out there which can put paid to DC3 War Engines, in any event) ...

I don't mean to be argumentative, but which weapons will kill a DC3 WE and not kill most of the other SC units (SM SC, IG SC, Autarch, Demon Prince etc) more easily?

It still seems you get far greater resiliency and firepower for few more points.

A Crisis with Shas'o is about 162 points, so for 38 points more you get DC3, 4+ RA, Deflector, greater firepower?

IMO the Dragonfish was bordering on too good a deal as it was, to add more firepower without some significant points increase pushes it over the edge.

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Icon-Of-Sin

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:39 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:38 am
Posts: 66
Location: Italy.

@Tactica: Sorry! It wasn't in the Notes and so I didn't noticed it! Ah...The deflecting qualities of the Deflector! :laugh:

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Honda

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:01 am

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

So if people have heartburn over the deflector, should that be dropped as the Scorpionfish don't have it either? I'd be more interested in keeping the weapons loadout and cost down vs. a bigger more expensive HQ.

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Honda

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:34 pm

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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9348
Location: Singapore

Quote (Tactica @ 12 Nov. 2005 (20:35))

If we have no further comments, then we'll put in the proposed in the next WIP rev for folks to chew on.

Hi Tactica. Can I request that things like this are posted as a list of suggestions, rather than a WIP force list? It just makes it easier for me to read and discuss the changes.

Thanks.

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Tactica

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:26 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Absolutely CS.

So we'll leave the Dragonfish as is for now.

I'll add dragonfish weapons considerations to the questions/suggestions list document.

Thanks for responses everyone.

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Rob

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