Due to my stupid PC playing up, I've edited my previous post.

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We typically play "blind", and so we don't know what army we'll be facing week-to-week.

This tends to ensure that players don't customise their lists to fight particular enemies.

If we're testing a particular experimental list, we try and use "standard" lists that have seen a lot of play previously (so I typically take my tournament Steel Legion list, or my all-comers Marine list, or whatever), rather than writing one specifically to face the experimental list.

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Unless we're doing a scenario or something, which is of course a different kettle of fish.

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Which is way under what I've been told most UK players take in tournies BTW. I believe the 500 point AA umbrella was mentioned a while back in my "Barracuda naffness" thread IIRC.
So, are you saying the brit players don't actually go with larger AA capability now? Wasn't that part of the UK air-metagame described?

Also, given that no other army generally adheres to "working under their own umbrella," why should the Tau have to do so? Most Thunderbolt attacks I witness happen in my half of the board knowing full well they have AA to fly through. Sure they know it can hurt but they also get to jink if things go bad. Having to jink with the AX1-0 means no shooting - another turn of no firing....


Are you pulling my chain?     a 6+ defensive shot is not "great" it's very average at best. Sure you can fire all round but most aircraft stand off at 30cm to CAP. How good is that? If you're opponents are getting within 15cms of you to shoot down a 6+ armoured plane then they're doing it wrong...


sigh... Look everyone seems to want to ignore Onyx and myself and paper over the issue we have so shall I not even bother? It's getting a bit boring trying to make people understand this perspective when clearly no one gives a fat rat's clacker.

My typical Steel Legion setup (1 fighter squadron and 2-3 flak guns) is slightly on the low side I guess, but not greatly exceptional... that's 250pts-300pts invested in AA typically.


I'm not so into the tournament scene as I'd properly know.
A browse of their available army lists might tell you the answer though.


No other army has bombers worth a damn, other than thunderhawks and they have RA4+ with 2DC.

Actually I'll note here that Krieg Heavy Marauders (2DC WEs) are useful as bombers.

With 45cm range, the AX-1-0 doesn't even need to leave its own AA umbrella to strike at the enemy's deployment zone, even on turn 1 you just need to move a skyray or two forwards and you've got the umbrella up.

Thunderbolts are cheap enough you can afford to throw them away if nessesary.


Why would an AX-1-0 jink?
It already has a 4+ armour save... and it's a Bomber.



Then that's nice as it typically reduces the number of AA shots they'll be getting.

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C'mon dude. I do not think it is like that

How about trying the AX10 under it's own umbrella of protection, changing the army strategy a bit, and reporting on it. I would myself just to show it, but I would rather spend my limited time playing assault forces for now.

I do think there is a difference between people not listening, and people providing constructive alternatives. From my perspective, people have been providing some good ideas to consider.  

My recommendation: have people agree on a force, then you play it, report on it, and then discuss from a position of where it has been shown.

Just my thoughts to help get you out of the "fat rat's clacker" thinking.

Cheers..  

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Although, I've stayed out of this debate and simply lurked, Dobbsy has articulated all of my problems with playing as Tau (As the aforementioned local Tau player who now uses Eldar by Jeridian).

Dobbsy I agree 100 % with everything you have said about the Tau list and if you look back over some of the old threads, particulary battle reports you'll see that this has been my position for a while - particulary on the AX-1-0s and HHs.

I too prefer slightly beefire fms to a high activation count, because small fms of Tau melt away very quickly, even in the first turn.  Air assaults, artillery, enemy scouts and drop pods quickly whittle down any activation advantage smashing/breaking small weak fms which leaves the Tau player with equal activations but fms that are so weak as not to be able to mount a decent fight back.

If the points drops on Crisis and Hammerhead formations go through, your concerns about ground formations may go away.

AX-1-0s are still awesome though.  

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Indeed, it was TRC who said that 500pts was his desired AA costs.

Reducing a couple of formations by 25pts might not help this situation enough.

I was just thinking about making Hammerheads more usable.

How about a change to the Hammerhaed upgrade?

2 or 4 extra Hammerheads for 125 to 250pts (or whatever the points are reduced to if that happens).

I seem to remember Honda preferring larger Hammerhead formations. This would still allow an unupgraded formation of 4 to fit in a Manta. It would give the formation more survivability and more firepower at a cost.

Just a thought.

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That doesn't go anywhere towards making the formation of 4 (or 6) more attractive.

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Weren't a of people using a formation of six Hammerhead, plus Skyray, as an attractive and successful formation in previous versions?  I'm pretty sure it winds up being the same cost as the old AMHC formation, so why is it "sub-par" now?

I don't think I ever saw much use of a eight-strong (plus Skyray) formations when it was a core choice, so why are people looking for that now?

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I did say "or whatever the points are reduced to if that happens".

Just trying to find a way to make Hammerheads last longer in a game. I've seent hem die very quickly all too often.

*Edit-

I'm often forced to use formations of 4 Hammerheads+Skyray to keep the activation count up. I sometime manage to squeeze 1 formation of 6 Hammerheads+Skyray but it's not a common sight at the moment for me.

Maybe having 8 Hammerheads+Skyray (at an appropriate cost) will make the unit more survivable and therefore more usable.

Like I said, just an idea...

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The thing is, I'm not sure that's specifically a failing of the Hammerheads or a response by the opponent.

A Hammerhead formation can throw out a lot of firepower (especially against a marked target), tends to have organic AA, is reasonably tough, and can often be a BTS formation.  When I see such a formation in my opponent's army, I go out of my way to take it out early; regardless of what points my opponent paid for it, I see it as a threat that must be quickly eliminated.

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IMO it's down to how the army's playstyle has changed.

As (most) Hammerhead types are long-range units, they suffer if their target is not markerlit. Shorter ranged units don't tend to have this problem as by the time they're in range, so are some markerlights...

So in practice, Hammerheads aren't hitting as hard as they used to.

Railgun Broadsides aren't having this problem, because they were a bit overpowered before v6 (and now they're balanced).

So I propose a minor points drop for Hammerhead formations to re-balance them at their new power level.

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But I believe people are remembering how hard they used to hit and are reacting to take them out before they realize they aren't as scary anymore.

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Possibly, but I can't say as I've gone out of my way to target Hammerheads lately. I don't regard them as as serious a threat as Broadsides, or Crisis formations, for example.

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