Let me head this off at the pass now, we're not going there. Skyrays are nasty, in the fluff have a reputation as being quite dangerous to the Imperials, yet it is still possible in the game for Thunderhawks to fly into the teeth of these things and deliver pain. They are fine, not cheap, but effective.

We're not re-opening up the can to see if we can see some worms. We were discussing "if" any changes should be made to Barracudas.

This discussion has pretty much gone circular and I am now at option #2 from the above post.

Thank you for your participation.

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Honda

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Well the Skysweep Support Group kosts 100pts more than an Imperial Guard Flak Battery (3 Hydras). It has the same number of AA shots and the same to-hit number (5+). Skimmer doesen't help against Aircrafts. But the Skyrays have +15cm range compared to Hydras.

IMHO the +15cm range is totally worth the +100pts. If it proves to extreme in actual battlereports then i suggest a points increase to 300pts for the Skysweep Support Group.

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Don't they also have better armour than a hydras 6+

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Hmm right. Every time i forget that Hydras have a worser save than they should have.

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This discussion is not about Skyrays.

The final disposition of the Barracudas has moved into the hands of the judges.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

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Tiger Sharks are for ground attacks. Not Air Superiority Fighters.

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So you're not a fan of having things with similar abilities cost a similar points value then Steve?


And Honda, option 2 does nothing to this aircraft but leave it the same. Locking us out of this discussion is just silly. You haven't even tried to "Make the two ship squadron slightly more attractive" before you've jumped into #2. Frankly that's disappointing AC-ship IMO.   How about you propose some stats before you go this route? Then we can perhaps discuss them.

Please let me again make myself clear to everyone here who seems to think I want this aircraft to be lord of the skies and that it will be a super plane.

I would just like points costs in this game to give you roughly the same value for cost. The Barracudas DO NOT at this point in time.

Morgan used them just fine against me as Interceptors.

Using them out of their role will no doubt see them percieved as inferior.

150 points to CAP in order to protect the skies with your flak is fine. It also uses a cheap activation. This is also while the rest of your army shoots up the ground forces. With more massed firepower from such small units than any other army in the game, and more aircraft to boot than some forces, why are we even discussing this?

The only time they seem to be an issue is when a Tau player uses them for a GA and they get shot by Interceptors and CAP. Learn to use them differently is my answer.

The only other sensible suggestion has been from E&C stating a 125 point costing. Even at that point, it is giving a bonus to an army that can potentially end a game by the end of turn 2.

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Sorry TRC. I have to disagree.  

I believe it is at least 100 points more fantastic.

Being able to fly through enemy flak with abandon while being protected by your own curtain of flak is very fantastic.

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What I am not going let happen is have this thread turn into a p*ssing contest. There are basically two camps, neither side is yielding, let alone discussing. The same two positions are argued as if that is going to change anything. It never has in case Tau history has escaped you.

What this discussion and any proposals also will not do is induce imbalances to the rest of the list. So that leaves some severe constraints, but doesn't mean that a solution isn't possible. I did offer what I thought was a middle ground solution to the issue. I didn't expect everyone to jump up and send me flowers, but I did expect it to spin off some civil discussion. Onyx also offered a suggestion, but instead of focusing on solutions, the scope opened up and new units were dragged in, which had the effect of throwing accelerant on the already firey "discussion".

If refusing to let you guys verbally beat each other senseless disappoints you, I'm Ok with that.

So go to your separate corners, drink some water and come out shaking hands.

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Honda

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- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Honda

Appreciate your efforts in this. Being an AC is definately not an easy task; especially with such an army where there is so much enthusiasm.  

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Yep I agree FB, the problem is that they don't have a set role. TBs do it better at present.


Agreed.

More choices of aircraft, agreed. But Tau are still bound by the 1/3 rule so it evens out.


See my above point for cost vs value. In your WoEs thread, you yourself said "Why pay for teleport if it is not going to be used?". This seems to say you believe that units should be costed correctly for their abilities. Am I correct in this thinking?  My view on the Barras is similar and that's why this is being discussed.  


How would you use them differently? Can you give any examples? They currently have 2 functions. Unfortunately they don't do either well and that is disappointing. Getting shot by interceptors is part and parcel - it happens so nothing can be done about it. This discussion isn't about that.


I'll let Honda decide on points. As to potentially ending it in turn 2 I think any army is capable of this if played correctly and depending on what they face. Tau are no diffferent in that respect. Like I said, if they're costed correctly, I'd be happy to pay more for Barras if they were more useful. But right now all I want is a bit more parity for cost.

125 points is risky due to 5 aces type scenarios, as it potentially allows 8 barracuda formations in a 3000 point army, which is 2 more than are currently possible.

A slight weapon restating is probably the best option.

Honda: Actually I don't think there really are two camps here for once. This is one of the least entrenched Tau discussions I can remember.

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