Good point on the Crit, I will fix that.

I am not too sure about comparing point values based solely on ground attack performance.  The Phoenix looks a lot less overpriced when you consider that it is a FB with some pretty solid AA ability.  Also, it coming in a unit of 3 makes it more durable under fire than the other formations.  I think it is a good thing to compare the total effectiveness of them for ground attack and I am really glad you pointed it out Ginger, but there are other variables that I don't want to lose sight of.

In that light, the Marauder is the most similar to the TS, both are straight Bombers and come in a unit of two.  In 40k, both are WEs and have similar armour, which is why I gave the TS an armour of 4+.  The Phoenix is not a WE, so shouldn't be as tough as the Marauder or TS.

But, I am still agreeing that my initial stats were underpriced/overgunned.  BLs stats for the TS reflecting the drop of the AP shot for the Burst cannons seems to have had the desired effect.  Although I think you miscalculated the number of hits it would get in your post.  

Maurader (Bomber) (300)  (assuming 3 units per template)
~3 AP hits
~3 AT hits

TigerShark (Bomber)
~2.3 AP hits
~2.6 AT hits

AX-1-0 (Bomber)
~3.3 AP hits (of which 1.3 are TK)
~2.0 AT hits (of which 1.3 are TK(D3)

I think BLs adjustment for the TS looks good perhaps for 250 points?   I would suggest that the AX-1-0 keep a Seeker Missile attack to make it more effective.  I think it needs to cost at least 350 points for the formation so that you can only get 4 of them in a 3000 point game.

b]AX-1-0[/b] (Bomber)  350
~3.3 AP hits (of which 1.3 are TK)
~2.5 AT hits (of which 1.3 are TK(D3)

Hmm, well you are right that we should consider other factors than purely strike factor - I was merely pointing out the discrepancies there. Other aspects for consideration are alternatives to fit the particular niche, scalability or the number of formations per 3000 (and other army list levels), and then other 'fluffiness' like rarity etc.

Regarding the stats, the presence of TK means you get two values, one for AT and one for WE (which is the preferred target, obviously), and I had allowed for the higher number of hits against WE. The difference between normal and TK weaponry creates a statistical nicety that allows a degree of manipulation to compensate in one direction or the other. For example, to make the AX-1-0 more generalist, you could add the AT missile and drop to TK(2). Alternatively to make it more of a titan killer you would use TK1+(D3) without the missile. Others will probably feel that the weapon stats should be identical across the board, and usually I would agree. But in the case of airborne weaponry, I would make an exception both because airborne equivalents are usually modified (weight reduction, cooling, etc) and also because of the necessary game balance already discussed, which IMHO would justify a limited alteration.    

Finally on pointing the formations, there is obviously a 'sweet spot' between 251 and 333 that limits the number of formations in a 3000 point game (which seems to be the normal design yardstick). For this reason I would strongly advise using 275 or 300 points per formation:- 250 points is to cheap (IMHO) allowing four formations, while 350 is too expensive giving only two formations. But I also understand the desire to limit the AX-1-0 to satisfy 'fluffiness', in which case for 350 points (and two formations) you might be excused for upgunning the TK ability slightly as suggested.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Per the NetERC recommendations, Marauders are 2 for 250 points!

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

And also have 3BP bomb racks.

Ok, here they are again with some minor fixes and the changes as suggested to tone down their air-to-ground firepower where appropriate.

Barracuda                 2 for 175 with +1 for 75 points
Fighter-bomber
Save 6+
Ion Cannon 45cm, AP4+/AT5+,  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA5+
Missile Pod 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

TigerShark               2 for 225
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Ion Cannon 45cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA5+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile

TigerShark AX-1-0            2 for 350
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Railcannon 45cm, MW3+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA5+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile

Moray                 Cost 325
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
Twin-Linked Railcannon  75cm, MW3+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
OR
4x Twin-Linked  Ion Cannon 60cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
2x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc
2x Seeker Missile  90cm AT5+  Guided Missile

DC 3, Reinforced Armour, 5+ Tau Deflector, Always Popped Up, Planetfall
Critical:  The weapon capacitors on the Moray overload causing it to explode, the Moray is destroyed.
The Moray may be armed with a Railcannon or Ion Cannons, not both.

Manta                           700 Points
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
Twin-Linked Railcannon  105cm, MW2+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
3x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Ion Cannon 90cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
4x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc

DC 8, Reinforced Armour, 5+ Tau Deflector, Always Popped Up, Transport (unchanged), Planetfall

Critical:  The Tau Deflector is disabled and is unavailable for the rest of the game, further criticals add 1 point of damage.



Overall I think my preference is that the Moray only have the Ion cannon shots as it gives each unit a more distinct role.

You shouldn't name all 3 weapons Twin-linked Railguns.
By the book they are Twin-Linked Heavy Railguns. All the same.
If you giver the Moray only the Twin-Linked Ioncannons (which i favor because this would give the Tau it`s long range AP platform) then you need only one different name.

Suggestion:
TigerShark AX-1-0: Twin-Linked Heavy Railgun
Manta: Twin-Linked Heavy Railcannon

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

I still think the Heavy Railcannon (Twinned, or not) needs an "alt fire" to represent sub-munition rounds, as that's a big part of the weapon, that it's not "just" a Titan-killer slug thrower.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Perhabs?

Submunition (AX-1-0): AP5+/AT6+
Submunition (Manta): AP4+/AT5+

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

There should be a multiplier in there... like 3 x or so... it's a 10" template in 40k... should be fairly devastating to troops or vehicles,probably even MW, as it's very deadly.

My proposal for the Manta was this:



And the AX-1-0 this:

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

In my WeaponTable i gave the Heavy Railgun Blast (own invention, every AP hit = two AP hits)and Disrupt to represent the large blast area.
But simply 2x shots for AX-1-0 and 3x shots for Manta will do the job too

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Some questions about that:

1.  What are the 40k stats for the submunitions?  and what are the Apocalypse stats?

2.  I know that the AX-1-0 and the Manta have the same weapon stats, range excluded, is that true for the submunitions?

Wh40k Imperial Armour Apocalypse stats:

Manta:
Heavy Railgun
- (solid shot) Range 110", Strength D, AP 1, Ordnance 1, Destroyer, Primary Weapon
- (sub-munitions) Range 110", Strength 7, AP 3, 10" Blasttemplate, Ordnance 1, Primary Weapon, Drone Controlled (= no additional D6 for deviation when moving)

TigerShark AX-1-0
Heavy Railgun
- (solid shot) Range 110", Strength 10, AP 1, Ordnance 1, Destroyer, Primary Weapon
- (sub-munitions) Range 110", Strength 7, AP 3, 10" Blasttemplate, Ordnance 1, Primary Weapon

Only difference is, that the solid shot is Strength D on the Manta and Strength 10 on the AX-1-0 and that the sub-munitions of the Manta is Drone Controlled.

Imperial Armour 3: the Taros Campaign stats:

Manta
Heavy Railgun
- (solid shot) Range 108", Strength 10, AP 1, Ordnance 1, Titan-killer
- (sub-munitions) Range 108", Strength 7, AP 3, Ordnance 1, Blast (= 3" template), Drone Controlled (= no additional D6 for deviation when moving)

TigerShark AX-1-0
Heavy Railgun
- (solid shot) Range 108", Strength 10, AP 1, Ordnance 1, Titan-killer
- (sub-munitions) Range 108", Strength 7, AP 3, Ordnance 1, Blast (= 3" template)

Only difference is, that the sub-munitions of the Manta is Drone Controlled.

Anyone has the Aeronautica Imperialis stats?

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Thanks BL, I appreciate you posting that.

So, my feeling is that the Railcannons are fine as just TK weapons.  The stats for the submunitions are really not that different from what the Baneblade or Shadowsword can put out, but those are represented with just a single type of shot in Epic.  Str 7 Ap 3 is not MW strength, that isn't even as strong as a battlecannon, which is given AP4+.  I think they are fine as is and that in this case, it is better to abstract the submunitions into the MW attack that the weapons already get.