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Development Plan

 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:09 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 04 Nov. 2008, 22:42 )

And I contend that the Tau are not weak in assaults, with their respectable Firefight values, and good-to-excellent armour save values, they are 'average' at worst..

And I contend otherwise. Average armour saves and weak CC values mean weak in CC to me.

Weak in CC? Yes, for those you can catch.

Weak in Assaults? Not really, 5+ FF, lots of skimmers and jetpacks and decent saves is enough to consider them average in assaults.

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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:25 am 
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Got to play a game last night. 3K Tech Guard vs Tau. We trialed TRC's Aircraft (specifically AX-1-0's and Baracuda's) and Jet pack rule changed to get a free 15cm move after shooting (no jumping away from assaults).

The AX-1-0's were marvelous (due in part to my opponents fear of them). There killed or broke 2 Warhounds (with some help) by half way through the 2nd turn. My opponent was being a bit reckless with them though. The 3rd was broken by Broadsides. I believe they won't be as successful next time he faces them (he learnt a lot during this game).

In an unfortunate turn of events (for the Tau anyway  :blush: ) the Crisis Suits (with Supreme Commander) and a FireWarriors Cadre were within Assault range of a Preatorian formation with support from a Skitarii Demi-Centuri. No jumping out of range for the Crisis Suits here... The Tau were all but wiped out (only the Shas'O survived making his Inv. save) with no loss for the Imperials. Ugly! Please note that if I had been able to win the stategy roll on the 3rd turn (with a plus 1 advantage) it would've been a different story.

There were Kroot on the table but they had been set up as a screen and the Kroot near the assault had already been eliminated.

The Tau won on the 3rd turn by 50pts (we ran out of time to finish the game properly). More of a draw really.
I'll try and do a more detailed write-up soon.




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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:14 am 
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Weak in Assaults? Not really, 5+ FF, lots of skimmers and jetpacks and decent saves is enough to consider them average in assaults

Pedantics aside, again that's not what I was saying. Please pay attention to my entire quote.
Weak in assault is a weakness. I've yet to win a real CC assault with my troops.
Also, you fail to mention that "lots of skimmers" are weak in FF also - most of which have 6+ FF btw.





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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:27 am 
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Onxy:

And that's why the '15cm after shooting' proposal is less annoying than the current Jetpacks rule. :)

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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:46 am 
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Weak in assault is a weakness. I've yet to win a real CC assault with my troops.


Yep, Tau lose CC assaults, but have several ways of avoiding CC assaults. It's not a huge downside, whereas it certainly should be.

It's not a weakness on the scale of Marine's lack of long ranged shooting or Guard's lack of saves.




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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:15 am 
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To be fair and provide some balance for your argument - The count for FF5+ or better VS. FF6+ or worse is 14:9. I didn't count Vespids as I don't advocate their inclusion in the list and they will most likely move to section 6 if people's recent views are to be norm. Also, 1 of those 5+ FF units is the Swordfish which also will most likely move.

That comes out at 13:9.
Of those, 9(of 10) infantry types and 4 vehicles have 5+ or better. The majority of 6+ or worse are vehicles.

And that's why the '15cm after shooting' proposal is less annoying than the current Jetpacks rule

I'm a little confused by this rule proposal.

The way I read it (not sure I am doing it correctly) Crisis suits move in and fire from e.g 30cm. They then get to move back 15cm. this puts them 45cm from the target. No engagement is possible. How is one different to the other?
If you have jet packs you get to add 10cm to that distance when you have an engagement declared against you so then 40cm - still not able to engage them...

What am I missing?





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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:17 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 Nov. 2008, 07:27 )

Onxy:

And that's why the '15cm after shooting' proposal is less annoying than the current Jetpacks rule. :)

Yes, I know this and I agree with it.

It is simpler and still provides for some protection (in certain circumstances).

Because it's absolutely way too powerful after Sustain (Hold/Marshall rings any bells).

Simply state that the jumpack only works on a Move type activation (eg Advance or Double). When Sustaining, the whole turn is spent concentrating fire on the target so no additional movement is possible.

I'm sorry though, but for anyone who thinks Tau are even moderately good at assaults I've got some real estate to sell you in the Australian Outback...  :whistle:  :vD

I've seen multiple Formations of Tau get thrashed by both Eldar and Tech Guard in recent games. I honestly can't remember my Tau ever winning an assault (my opponents avoid my Kroot like the plague and I generally use them as a screen anyway - not a useful set-up for assaulting).
I find that it's generally best, not to even consider attempting Assaults whilst playing Tau (which is very annoying as assaulting in Epic is pretty much my favourite tactic) and try like crazy to avoid being assaulted (not as easy as some here seem to think).

When attempting an assault, there's the usual tactic of - Move a formation into support range and shot at the target. Retain/Assault with a second formation and recieve support from the first activation. This means that formations are able to attack more than once in a turn (supporting fire). Tau basically miss out on this side of the game entirely.

Of course Tau firepower is generally better than most other armies and I believe it has to be to compensate.




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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:02 am 
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Allowing free move after shooting also allows objective taking with great margin. That is not a good thing and should be for eldar only with hit and run.

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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 05 Nov. 2008, 15:19 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 05 Nov. 2008, 09:17 )

Because it's absolutely way too powerful after Sustain (Hold/Marshall rings any bells).

Simply state that the jumpack only works on a Move type activation (eg Advance or Double). When Sustaining, the whole turn is spent concentrating fire on the target so no additional movement is possible.

Well 65cm move per turn while shooting isn't my idea of balanced way to go. Sorry.

Edit: Besides, I think that move allow avoiding some assaults it much more in line with the idea of Tau list than free move after shooting (which is more like "lets follow 40k to letter" idea).

Out of interest then, how do people feel about SM Land Speeders, Ork Warbikes/Buggies/Skorchas/Deth Koptas, IG Valkyries/Vultures etc (just to name a few)?

All these units can move more than 65cm and shoot.
Are all these units broken?

Also, I have no idea what the 40K rules are (and it really doesn't bother me). I'm far more interested in having a simple, playable, fair and effective Epic rule for Epic games.


Taking objectives is one thing, keeping them is something else (and something that I know from 1st hand experience, Tau are not good at).




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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:26 pm 
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Well Tau Jetpacks in Wh40 are very simple.

Generally all Infantry canmocve 6" ibn the Movemend Phase and if enemy units are in range they can assault 6" in the Assault Phase.

Units with Jetpacks canmove 6" in the Movemend Phase and ignore Terrain and the can allways move 6" inthe Assault Phase even if no enemy is in range.

Between the Movemend Phase and the Assault Phase is the Shooting Phase where Jetpack units can shoot Heavy Weapons even if they have moved.

Thats it.

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 Post subject: Development Plan
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:36 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 05 Nov. 2008, 06:02 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 Nov. 2008, 02:27 )

And that's why the '15cm after shooting' proposal is less annoying than the current Jetpacks rule. :)

Because it's absolutely way too powerful after Sustain (Hold/Marshall rings any bells). Because I don't want to allow them to escape the small chance I now have to assault them (shoot at 16-30cm and jump pack to escape). Besides 25+25 = 50cm then shoot someone + 15cm = 65cm move in one turn without march. Come on.

As Onyx says, state the rule is only allowed to be used after an Advance or Double action.

Well 65cm move per turn while shooting isn't my idea of balanced way to go. Sorry.


A -5cm reduction in the basic speed of the units affected is part of the proposal, which you have apparently not noticed.

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