Well a copy of BFG Armada is handy in suc hcases

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Although it's worth mentioning that a Messenger-class courier is essentially a Warp Dive with a big computer and a couple crew cabins, that isn't much bigger than a Manta (personal opinion on size, no reference).  

Also, I've never found a reference that a THawk could travel between planets.  Lots of references of THawks acting like airliners, taking off from a ship and landing on-planet, or from one side of the planet to another, or from one ship to another, but never from one planet to another.  I don't even remember any discussions of from planet to moon.  If someone can find a reference for THawks being able to travel from one planet to another (that's usually a multi-month trip, unless you're under continuous acceleration), then I will concede the point, but until then, a Manta has longer space-legs than a THawk, and that's why it can self-planetfall.

Put me into the camp preferring the FW statline, it's less a gun-monster, and more intended to hot-drop units into combat.  (Uh, could someone post the FW stats, just so that we can compare directly? I don't have access to my book at the moment.)

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Although it's worth mentioning that a Messenger-class courier is essentially a Warp Dive with a big computer and a couple crew cabins, that isn't much bigger than a Manta (personal opinion on size, no reference).

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Well the playtest which is now written up did remind me about a few things manta wise.

The planetfall is a big force multiplier. Take the warlord you are slow. It will take you a long time to get stuck in. The Mnata has no reason not to planetfall. You succeed on a 1+, before then deathstrikes and the like can't touch you. You then arrive, can see everything and open up. Arriving 60cm off the blitz ensures a couple of turns movement gets you there and you can shoot all the way. Plus of course being further out ensures crossfires are harder to suffer.

That force multiplying factor is another reason why I'd like to see it toned down to the 6xx range. Devestating but not overpowering.

On a tangent should a self planetfall be redifined? It could be a new action. Or that planetfall bit could count as its first move (so you will most likely wish to double and will have to advance to even arrive) of a normal action.

Of course you could still drop using a hero - in which case you have a small boost in return for the extra cost and nessecity to use two activations.

And does anyone else here have this victorian/enterprise picture in their mind of the crew on the bridge operating under fire?

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The messenger is an Escort-sized ship (Ie: About a kilometre long). I think we can agree that's considerably bigger than the bomber-sized Manta. [/quote]

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Says who?[/quote -->

Says who?[/quote)

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By the background, the Manta is described as a 'small Escort'. It is able to make deep space trips. The Thunderhawk, by comparrison is designed to make drops from space vessels in low orbit.

The Manta is designed to travel between planets, and between space vessels. The Thunderhawk is a much more specialised craft, where its mission is to get its cargo down to the surface by the quickest route.

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Ok, forget the discussions on the deep space abilities of imaginary space craft, and consider this...

With free planetfall, Tau players will always planetfall their manta every game. Does that sound realistic, or even logicial?

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I'd like to see a quote on that, as the only relevant background I know of says it's classed as a bomber, not an escort.

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To add:

The Tau Castellan class escort (FW) has also Warp Dive capability.

A marker of Thunderhawks represent 3 Thunderhawks
A marker of a Manta represents 1 Manta

In BFG Thunderhawks are resilient fighter-assault boats.
In BFG Manta's are resilient bombers.

Personally I would have liked a different rule mechanic for Manta's in BFG (I'm not the only one). Tigersharks should have been used as fighter-bombers imo.

Manta's should be to bought at xx pts(10pts) from the total fleet value.
Manta's keeping 4+ save vs everything (thus not only against other ordnance).

Merzo is WRONG WRONG WRONG

The BFG ships submitted to that site where at a different size. Author's requests to change have not been met.

Cobra 800metres
Other IN escorts ~1000metres
Cruisers 2500-3300metres
Battleships -~5000metres

A thread at BL with one of their authors, who made a Lunar to be (I believe) 7km stated he made a mistake and above lengths are correct.

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Sorry but you are wrong. The Manta has the same "resilient" rules as the Thunderhawk and Eldar Fighters.

Quote from BFG Armada:
Mantas.
Mantas are bombers, each marker represents a single vessel. They are well shielded and if intercepted by enemy fighters roll a D6, on a roll of 4+ the Manta is not removed. Mantas move 20cm. Whilst Mantas can carry large numbers of troops they are not used to board enemy vessels as boarding is totally contrary to the Tau’s approach to space warfare.

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Does the highlighted section also mean that the Tau would not use the Manta as an assault craft???

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Well it probably means they wouldn't enter an assault out of it. Saying that load it up tot he nines with cheap stuff and attack the enemy bts after planetfall, you should wipe most BTS's out!

Since the Manta has eerily floated back into discussion (like the giant floating UFO it is) here is my suggestion for its stats.

Points are left off, as these are dependant on the resolution of the planetfall and support craft capability. However with the existing rules it seems to play at 6xx points (well I blew it up about as easily as I get Reavers ).

Manta - something or other config (to allow variation later on for sub lists), umm mech assault?

War Engine
Move 20cm
Save 5+ Reinforced Armour, Deflector shield (at a straight 5+), Damage Capacity 10
CC n/a
FF 5+
Twin-linked Heavy Railcannon, 90cm, MW2+, Titan Killer (D3), Fixed Forward Arc
4 x Seeker Missiles, 75cm, AT6+, Guided Missiles
3 x Twin-linked Ion Cannon, 60cm, AP3+/AT3+, Fixed Forward Arc
Multiple Long-barrelled Burst Cannons, 30cm, 4 x AP4+/AA6+
Support Craft - need to resolve rules
Planetfall
Markerlight
Fearless
Critical Hit Effect: Not sure. It was played as the deflector goes down but this leaves him pretty exposed and there is a 4/81 chance of any hit striking the Manta to do it. As you need (with the shield up) apr. 34 hits to kill it on average you will be losing it every game. Maybe instead have a crit that does D3 extra damage, or copy the FW manta crit?
Transport (may carry 38 infantry units, with battlesuits taking two slots each. Up to 12 light vehicles may be carried, taking two slots each. Up to 4 armoured vehicles may be carried taking 7 infantry spaces each, or 5 if they are Devilfish).

Transport is a bit complex but this is copied straight from FW. As this is x config could simplify it to 18 infantry stands and 4 vehicles or 6 light vehicles.

If thats not enough weapons you can add in the twin linked missile pod as well. But I think that is the Tau equivalent of a Reaver Titan class warengine (better short range, better all round, doesn't have the anti armour bias). The support craft/planetfall rules though will really determine its points cost and the transport ability is hard to quantify.

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TRC I'm still convinced that a 5+ save is too fragile. I'd prefer it at DC 8 with a 4+. The DC 9 in the FW list is probably a bit much as it makes it better in a FF than a warlord 9*FF3+.