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Discussions on the Tau.
Onyx
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:23 am 
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CS - I hope you stick to your (rail) guns! ?:laugh:
the Stingray is an extension of the SkyRay and covers a much needed 'volume firepower' aspect.
I would like to agree with this. ?:;):

I believe the list only needs a few price modifications and exploring Moscovian's idea.

Crisis Suits might be a relatively safe place to hide an SC but its a fairly harmless combat unit now. I usually use it to stay out of trouble and try and annoy the opposition by claiming objectives at the end. I don't really enjoy using them.

spaceraider - As Legion 4 says "Do What Works For You".
If you want to use a ScorpionFish, don't let anyone here change your mind. It's in the list and therefore it is perfectly fine to use it and not powergaming.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:18 am 
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Crisis Suits might be a relatively safe place to hide an SC but its a fairly harmless combat unit now. I usually use it to stay out of trouble and try and annoy the opposition by claiming objectives at the end. I don't really enjoy using them.


Jstr19 (Ryan) don't you have an alternate set of Crisis Suit stats that you prefer?

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:50 am 
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(CyberShadow @ May 20 2008,17:30)
QUOTE
While I have absolutely no intention of adding any more units, I am reasonably determined to stick with the ones that we already have.

:D  However, I am very happy to enter into discussions on points values, balance, etc.

At this point, the two changes which are certainly 'in' for the next version are:

The restriction of one type of auxiliary in a Tau force. Pick either Kroot, Humans or Vespids and you cant have the other two.

Crisis suits will get their 30cm MW returned to them.  :blush:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:00 pm 
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Crisis suits will get their 30cm MW returned to them.

Do you mean 30cm AP4+?


The restriction of one type of auxiliary in a Tau force. Pick either Kroot, Humans or Vespids and you cant have the other two.

What about only allowing one alien aux formation for every three core Cadres?

Same result in a 3k game, but it scales properly for smaller (No aux at all) and larger (More aux) games.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:12 pm 
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Also, a serious proposition:

DROP one or two non-canon units, and replace them with:

- The Ramora Drone Fighters (Some kind of super-zippy skimmer)
- The Tigershark AX-2-2
- The MW Hammerhead variant

It seems such a shame to ignore some of the cool models that do exist.

Heck, if you don't want to drop any units, add the new ones anyway!

They're more suitable to the Tau method of war* to me than the Moray Titan or the volume firepower of the Scorpionfish.



* Combined arms, and extreme speed.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:14 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ May 21 2008,06:50)
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[quote="CyberShadow,May 20 2008,17:30"]At this point, the two changes which are certainly 'in' for the next version are:

The restriction of one type of auxiliary in a Tau force. Pick either Kroot, Humans or Vespids and you cant have the other two.

CS, how do you feel about making drones an auxilliary as well?

The Drone Stealth Fighters and Aerial Mines might make their way into the list that way as well.  It might also address some of the balance concerns people have with the turrets and all-drone formations.

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:28 pm 
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I think official available models should be available in a core list.

But ignore me, I'm a BFG player. heh heh

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:37 pm 
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Hmmm, am I incorrect in thinking that Ramorca Drone Fighters, if you removed their wings and mounted them 3 to a base, would make good heavy gun drones?

They look about the right size.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 2:59 pm 
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Do you mean 30cm AP4+?


Ummm, yes. That one.  :blush:

What about only allowing one alien aux formation for every three core Cadres?

Same result in a 3k game, but it scales properly for smaller (No aux at all) and larger (More aux) games.

They are already max of one per Fire Warrior Cadre, and this has a nice feel to it.

It seems such a shame to ignore some of the cool models that do exist.

Heck, if you don't want to drop any units, add the new ones anyway!

It is a shame, and I would be happy to include the two fliers except for two issues.

1. They are more fliers. The Tau already have a good selection of aircraft and I dont really see what is to be gained by adding more.

2. They would require more special rules, and we are full for special rules right now.

These two extra units are likely to make it into the section 6 list, but are unlikely to make the core list.

The HammerHead variant is the first time that I have seen this suggested. Getting the balance between the IonHead and RailHead is already a tough job, and adding a third posibility would complicate things further. Also, if this makes it in, there will be additional requests for the other variants, and the 'MissileHead' is where the line should be drawn in my opinion.

Though the humans need to be made slightly better or they won't get taken (replace pulse blasters (?) with 1 x pulse rifle, or push the numbers up again, or give them carapace ...... something!) Kroot and Vespid are far better and have upgrades.

My favoured here would be to replace their Pulse Blasters with full Pulse Rifles. However, there were initially downgraded due to them being a much better option than Fire Warriors, and I would hate to go around that particular circus again.

I agree with E&C with regards to the new units - choice is a feature of the Tau and the Tau list, I disagree that there can be too much.

And yet there are calls that the current Tau list already has too much choice... You can please some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time... and Tau people none of the time!  :p  :D

CS, how do you feel about making drones an auxilliary as well?

This would force players to pick either Drones or Kroot/Humans, etc and I think that this would be a shame. Drones are a core aspect of any Tau force, and are used regularly in armies. It would be a shame to lose that.

Perhaps add those to changelog post?

Ah yes... the change-log... I think that this is very out of date at this point, and needs an update.

Hmmm, am I incorrect in thinking that Ramorca Drone Fighters, if you removed their wings and mounted them 3 to a base, would make good heavy gun drones?

They look about the right size.

I had thoughts along these lines too. Right now, I use the tops from the turrets, but they are very large.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:11 pm 
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I would still urge the air power to be either a) fitting epic or b) matching 40k. Currently Tau have the best interceptor in raw firepower (better than the eldar) and the best fighter (well its a fighter bomber) in overall terms (with the latter replacing the former unless you aren't min maxing, as the Tau have excellent ground flak and having a duel role more survivable aircraft is better game wise, plus a gm horde needs its drone dropping ability (which is apparently its main function in fluff) if you have decided not to be ott and use drones).

They aren't balanced internally and they certainly aren't balanced externally (but hey, who am I to talk, I'm under the impression a 5+ save is better than a 6+ one).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:38 pm 
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They are already max of one per Fire Warrior Cadre, and this has a nice feel to it.


A hard 0-1 limit doesn't have a nice feel to it, IMHO.

Hard 0-1's that don't scale to the size of game being played aren't balanced.

The only hard 0-1's should be those that are absolutely nessesary on fluff grounds (Supreme Commanders) or balance grounds (Deathstrikes).

It is a shame, and I would be happy to include the two fliers except for two issues.

1. They are more fliers. The Tau already have a good selection of aircraft and I dont really see what is to be gained by adding more.

2. They would require more special rules, and we are full for special rules right now.

I don't see why it'd need more special rules.

The Remora especially is just a Light Vehicle Skimmer with an AA shot, to my eye (Not fast enough to be a true aircraft).


The HammerHead variant is the first time that I have seen this suggested. Getting the balance between the IonHead and RailHead is already a tough job, and adding a third posibility would complicate things further.

I think the MW Hammerhead variant (The fusion guns) looks fine on paper (Less than half the range of a railgun hammerhead, a pip worse to hit, but goes from AT to MW).

If it's heinously overpowered you could simply drop the FF stat to 6+, but really it looks fine, and might even encourage more aggressive Tau army styles (Rather than the stand-off missile / Manta / Broadside style of the list ATM).

My favoured here would be to replace their Pulse Blasters with full Pulse Rifles. However, there were initially downgraded due to them being a much better option than Fire Warriors, and I would hate to go around that particular circus again.

What about giving them Autocannons ala the IG?

That even gives them a different role to the Fire Warriors, so they're no longer competing in the same role.


I agree with E&C with regards to the new units - choice is a feature of the Tau and the Tau list, I disagree that there can be too much.


And yet there are calls that the current Tau list already has too much choice... You can please some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time... and Tau people none of the time!  :p  :D

I think there's a difference between too much choice, and too many units.

The Tau list doesn't have too many units (It has less than the Eldar, or either flavour of Chaos).

What it may have is a truly byzantine range of upgrade options, that give too much choice.

Ya dig?






@TRC

They aren't balanced internally and they certainly aren't balanced externally (but hey, who am I to talk, I'm under the impression a 5+ save is better than a 6+ one).

Care to propose some alternate stats that would be balanced TRC?




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