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V4.4 - Scorpionfish and Dragonfish |
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| clausewitz |
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland |
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| clausewitz |
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland |
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| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
c. AT As support - and to fit in with the excellent markerlights theme it should be Guided missile AT firesupport for Tau units. 2. What secondary role (if any) should this vehicle statisfy? |
Secondary role would be anti infantry to support Railcannon tank units.
Combining 1 and 2 is either a varied missile load, or a bunch of duel purpose MW missiles. However you would have to be careful that it wouldn't then overshadow the hammerheads and mechanised infantry and it does seem to be in support of them.
AA support should I think be left to dedicated skyrays, with Ion Hammerhaeds cutting into their role no need to further negate them.
3. With number 1 in mind, what is the overall effective range of this vessel when;
a. stationary?
b. moving?
c. double moving?
It depends on how you view the tank - is it to suport an advance in which case it needs to be able to move up with mobile units and provide fire support when they stop to engage (a missile version of an assualt gun?), in which case it should be stationary for best use, or is it a vehicle version of a crisis team providing fire support wherever needed? In which case it needs to double and still be hitting on at least a 6 at targets in cover.
4. Keeping number 2 and 3 in mind, how fast should it go?
d. 25-30cm (APC, tracked AV, Skimmers, and jump infantry)
The normal Tau speed of 30cm seems hard to justify with extra armour, missiles, stores etc. But 20cm is too low for wjat should be the most flexible force outside of a craftworld. That leaves 25cm. Not as fast as a Hammerhead but fast enough not to miss the battle.
5. With 4 in mind, weapon ranges will then become obvious.
You can stick with the Tau 75cm, with skimmer its enough (and keep the long range support to the air caste, again it is a nice feel to the Tau).
6. With 1-5 in mind, what kind of defensive & Combat stats should it have?
a. Armor
b. CC
c. FF
d. DC
e. Reinforced Armor?
f. Thick Rear Armor?
g. Tau shield
If your background is the Orca I'd go from there. Its no longer a flyer so that means you can reinforce the structure and increase the weight, part of that is weapons but the rest could be bulkheads, so up a DC. RA seems a bit out of character for such a conversion, a shield from redirected engine power seems far more likely. Thick rear armour is for assualt units, not support units. CC and FF the typical 6+ and 5+.
You can say it has missile drums with varied loads, but having one stat (MW) simukates the best one being fired for that target.
Going with all that and incorporating various ideas from the thread why not
ScorpionFish (you know, my biggest problem is the name - why not just call it the scorpion or archer (archer fish are great) the whole '-'fish thing just seems a little comical, or come up with a fish name which doesn't feature the word fish? Like say Bullhead (from the missile pods) or Wrasse, Dragonet, stargazer, Rhinopius etc etc)
Formation
2 ScorpionFish for 375 points.
Upgrades
Networked Drones or Supreme Commander, Drones, Skyray
Deriative of Orca, designed for supporting the mobile style of warfare characterised by the Tau. Main varient have increased command and control facilities sometimes employed by Tau commanders. Advanced target identification systems are complemented by a strong sensor suite, enabling missile salvos to consist of the optimal mix of warheads for the target reduction.
ScorpionFish (come on, call it a bullhead or something
)Type Warengine
Save 4+
CC 6+
FF 5+
Weapons
Missile Racks (or something), Range 75cm, 6xMW6+, Guided Missiles
2xSmart missile system, Range 30cm, AP4+, Ignore cover
DC 3, Tau Shield
So, similar to a Hammerhead formation in points, increased surivivability, less firepower (but heavier hits), harder to supress, slightly slower.
Thats the Mobile advance support. Static infantry support/line bulwark you can do, but its less exciting
You would be slow and because reguardless that its supposed to be supporting infantry you would want it to support your mobile thrust, you would need higher to hit values due to doubling/advancing a lot. So same as above but with less shots hitting on a 5+ and a speed of 15, maybe 20cm.
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| thurse |
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:13 pm Posts: 185 Location: Dundee, Scotland |
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| clausewitz |
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland |
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| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
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| Tactica |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241 |
So that is your first suggestion - and clearly your preferred. It is a clear vision with a purpose, but I think it does fall into the same trap the current one has. Slower speed with same range gun - so it gets left in the backfield and falls out of favor because the weapon ranges cannot keep up. Therefore, their are two major problems I would have with this vision - 1) speed + range is less of what MBT speed+range is, so the net effect of the long range support is lessor overall in play. Its going to need to do single moves (at least), and thus, its not sustaining. Enemy in cover are going to make it need 7+ to hit and 6+ if marked. It will need 6+ against targets out of cover and 5+ if out of cover and marked by another tau formation. 5+ - 7+ is not my idea uber missle support. Not with AT2+ hellstrikes in the game. With intelligent guided systems, I'm not saying we need to get to 2+ with Marker light and sustained - but having these additional requirements and being significantly inferrior seems to be the exact opposite of how the tau really operate. The Markerlight is to incorporate an ADDED level of accuracty beyond what the Imperials could hope for. So, this suggestion seems to be at the wrong end of the spectrum of 'to hit' possibilities. Second, the the weapon ranges. Due to speed, the weapon ranges are not what they need to be for this vision to work. I'm thinking 120cm is going to be more accurate. IG hellstrikes direct fire at 120cm. These are larger, more effective missles (in theory) and definitely more technologically advanced. Static infantry support/line bulwark you can do, but its less exciting You would be slow and because reguardless that its supposed to be supporting infantry you would want it to support your mobile thrust, you would need higher to hit values due to doubling/advancing a lot. So same as above but with less shots hitting on a 5+ and a speed of 15, maybe 20cm. |
Here we see your second recomendation.
A slower longer ranged and 5+ GM, but with less shots. Well, too much negative here to make it viable in my opinion.
I kind of said my peace above. I think you had the majority of the vessel right above.
I don't want to impose *my* vision on the group though. CS ultimately has to let us know how he sees the thing working.
Cheers,
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Rob
| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
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| Tactica |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241 |
Its a fair argument. As to how many MW shots though? |
At this point, I'm with you on the MW and I think we agree on the better to hit values with something like this. I don't know the range or quantity of the missiles. I think the vehicle speed of 25cm is right as well.
Its CS's vision at this point. We'll go forward from there once we have some guidance I suppose.
Cheers for the ideas,
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Rob
| HecklerMD |
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201 |
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| Tactica |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241 |
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| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
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| Tactica |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241 |
Where do you come up with this stuff? Seeker missles in the actual core game have unlimited range TRC... just like the Hellstrike I should point out! _________________ Rob |
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