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V4.4 - AX-1-0 Resolution (I hope!)
The_Real_Chris	Post subject: V4.4 - AX-1-0 Resolution (I hope!) Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:02 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	My observation of 'air-creep' was as people got more okay with air assualts and the like flak levels had to climb steadily in tourney armies to counter. Amoungst competitive ork armies for instance there are virtually no gunwagons and its flak all the way (including 'flak brigades'). If the advent of fliers with TK/MW weapons happens they will climb again as all flak is a better option than interceptors - as you have noted its good on the ground too, not something that can be said for interceptors, it also is currently better than said interceptors (appart from Eldar). Unless of course it is long ranged attacks in which case the only option is either to change army composition to attempt to stop these chaps being worthwhile, or taking fighters and hoping you get lucky (and don't run into massed flak). Do a search on this forum, the old sg one and maybe the new one - you can see it all starting to take shape and become evident as time passes. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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CyberShadow	Post subject: V4.4 - AX-1-0 Resolution (I hope!) Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:57 pm
Swarm Tyrant Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9349 Location: Singapore	Quote (HecklerMD @ 07 Mar. 2006 (06:17)) Then, I read somewhere those 2 words that made me re-evaluate my use of Hydras: ?"Infantry-Hoover." ?A 150 pt formation with 6 shots on Sustain is real handy; the AA is just gravy. ?The amount of Air I usually face has not increased, in fact the trend is downward in my group IMO, but my flack is doubling in my IG army. ?Am I reacting to this "Air Creep?" No, I'm just discovering the finess available in "Dual-Use" units. I agree with this, in part. The AA units in the game are good all-rounders and that makes them attractive options in the forces. I would like to see a change where all 'normal' flak units (with very few excpetions, perhaps the Fire Prism) can only attack air targets. _________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Tactica

Post subject: V4.4 - AX-1-0 Resolution (I hope!) Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:51 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (CyberShadow @ 07 Mar. 2006 (11:57)) The AA units in the game are good all-rounders and that makes them attractive options in the forces. I would like to see a change where all 'normal' flak units (with very few excpetions, perhaps the Fire Prism) can only attack air targets. ULGH! No offense intended CS, but I think this would be detrimental! Now you would have people taking less flak - as they would have a dedicated use, and aircraft would have a higher potential of impact on the game overall as they impact aircraft and ground targets! This would also impact how several units work fundamentally. Example: the Skyray is meant to have a MBT roll now. Making it AA only would change how the unit is supposed to perform. Obliterators have AA (which isn't even justified in any way shape or form of the rules/fluff) but now they would lose their ability to engage ground AT/AP formations - which would be very out of character! Zoanthropes would be in an identical boat! So this would cause major list impacting changes not to mention unit impacting changes. I'm not in favor of flak capable units only engaging aircraft at all. I defitely DO NOT think that's the answer to our problems. Moreover, you meantion the fireprism. Now there's an amazing piece of equipment! You would have this be the ONLY piece of equipment that kept its AA as well as its main gun? LOL - hmm... that wouldn't make a suspicious army any 'weaker'. Let's look at the Fire Prism... 75cm AA (who said all AA was 30cm-45cm some time ago? I guess the TS would get shot at by this thing before it would ever get off one of its main gun shots... anyway...) 75cm AT4+ / AP4+ and AA5+ ... (wait for it)... LANCE! Hah - its also a skimmer of course, has 35cm move - best skimming movement in the game, and is subject to the host of Eldar special rules (hit and run, spirit stones, LANCE). 75 points for an increadibly mobile main gun that also has stellar AA5+ (LANCE) - I'll take a formation or three even of these babies, thank you very much! Sorry CS - I just don't think it was "you" who was using your account when "your account" posted that last bit... or perhaps you forgot to take your medicine today... Cheers, _________________ Rob

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Tactica

Post subject: V4.4 - AX-1-0 Resolution (I hope!) Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:09 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 07 Mar. 2006 (01:02)) My observation of 'air-creep' was as people got more okay with air assualts and the like flak levels had to climb steadily in tourney armies to counter. That's not 'air-creep' thats players establishing what the necessary levels of certain assets are in order to succeed with the base ruleset and base three armies. Two of the base three armies allow for deadly air-assaults. If you propose that the base rules allow for a level of air-assault effectiveness not originally anticipated, that's not creep, that's a design flaw. If the advent of fliers with TK/MW weapons happens they will climb again as

This is an opinion and speculation at best.

all flak is a better option than interceptors - as you have noted its good on the ground too, not something that can be said for interceptors, it also is currently better than said interceptors  (appart from Eldar).
Which is a main rule problem that could be addressed - at least Eldar figured it out.

See suggestions I've previously made... I'll post them again here for your perusal...

+ + + Commence Cut and Paste + + +

The main flying rules have a few problems but its not a lost cause by any measure if the EA rules committee would get their act together and make some commitment to fix them. My suggestions are as follows:

1) Eliminat sniping - see the epicomms thread under Epicomms / EpicRules / EpicArmageddon / Aircraft Sniping. Solves character or key unit targetted aircraft approaches.

2) Eliminate landed transport capable fliers from being able to hold objectives. If the masses want them to contest, I guess it could be explored, but holding them is a no brainer. Just remove the possibility and be done. This would solve the Orc Landa, Marine Thunderhawk, Eldar Vampire, and Tau Orca transport issues some are concerned with.

3) CAS and Intercept orders in E:A main rulebook should be more effective. Either enemy armor needs a -1 or the chance to score a hit needs to be at +1. Solves the relatively limited use of fighters and gives the models some teeth vs. the targets that are supposed to be weeker and feebler against the fighter and fighter/bomber aircraft instead of putting them all on the same playing field.

4) Moving flak should be penalized and/or stationary flak should be awarded. Either subtract 1 from the chance to hit if the flak formation has moved in the current turn, and/or add +1 to hit if the flak formation forgoes any movement in the current turn. Gives all generals an ability to make 'better' use of their flak and penalizes the abstract use of redeploying flak and somehow having it just as effective as those that remain stationary for the duration of a hypothetical 10 minute turn.

Their may be others, but I think all of these four 'ideas' should be entertained to some degree to resolve the current aircraft in game situations. They would also allow the developers to keep the craft popular and usable in the main game without crippling the joy of the ground warfare we've all become fond of.

+ + + END Cut and Paste + + +

Unless of course it is long ranged attacks in which case the only option is either to change army composition to attempt to stop these chaps being worthwhile, or taking fighters and hoping you get lucky (and don't run into massed flak).
Sounds like a tactical decision. Out of the armies that are out there, there are plenty that have flak over 30cm and if 45cm is made to the be standardized 'maximum' long range on aircraft, then we'll be in good shape. Some lists will be more suspeptable to 'longer' ranged aircraft attacks, that's the nature of the beast. Some lists are more suspeptable to combat, to air assaults, to MW shooting, to AP shooting... etc.

At the end of the day, this game is won and lost by ground forces - and it should always remain as such. There's also a 33% limit to aircraft. Thus the recomendation to eliminate 'transports' from claiming objectives and to make stationary flak stronger BTW...

Do a search on this forum, the old sg one and maybe the new one - you can see it all starting to take shape and become evident as time passes.
So the reality is paying customers - i.e. PLAYERS want to use aircraft in their armies. Great - more product to sell.

Our job - make the rules work properly now - where their were original shortcomings. So it can be a win/win/win...

The company continues to sell product, customers continue to buy the toys they like, and the rules work for those that want to maintain a level of ground warfare.

Win/win/win.

Cheers,