Is that any different though than getting a Warlord or Great Gargant? Its your support allocation in one go as well. Here you have a choice between dropping or not dropping at least, and most spaceship based armies would have problems facing a Manta anyway.

Also exactly how many armies take spacecraft? Less than 20% at tourneys?

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My original comment about the Manta being a transport was in reply to your comment TRC -



I really hope the Manta does not go to a 2+ activation. Having one of the few sources of TK weapons activating on a 3+ (with BM's) kinda sucks.

If there was an upgrade that made the Manta a 1+ activation, you may aswell make it part of the Manta because a Manta would never be taken without it.

I agree that the drop Manta looks like it would be a good way of dealing with enemy WE's. I'll have to try it out when I can.

I believe TRC's idea was to have manta+hero come in at under 1000 points, and manta+commander at under 1000, but manta+commander+hero to be over 1000 so not an option at 3000 points.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Ok, I think before we get all wound up before real testing takes place lets set some boundaries:

1. Assume (as currently stated) that the Manta is 1+ Initiative. Although it is "possible" that it could drop to 2+, I am not in favor of going that route and it would have to be a "Perfect Storm" set of circumstances that would bring that up for consideration.

2. The vehicle is not currently Fearless. This is subject to potential adjustment, but for this round of testing, assume that it is not Fearless.

3. No Markerlight. It's not on there now.

In other words, I want us to do some testing as it is configured. I agree that we should try out both the Drop scenario as well as the On Board. I for one, will start with On Board, but am cognizant of TRC's T3 Drop.

Other possibilities to make worth the 700-ish points:

a. Increasing DC

b. Strengthening the Refractor shield (i.e. 4+, it's the only vehicle carrying it currently)

c. Manta = Supreme Commander

d. Fearless

d. Door #5...

However, let's get some observations from the field to add to our speculation.  

Oh, and because I love a good tease...

Note this sequence and see if you can determine the cause of the progression:

Pzkw I & II, T-60 & T-70, Pzkw III & IV, T-34/76 KV-1, Pzkw V & VI, T-34/85 IS-85 IS2 IS-122, ISU-152.

In France, Americans were still developing and implementing their Armor theory, ala Patton. Tank were and still are superior for executing maneuver warfare, which includes killing the bad guys tanks.

But I digress...LOL.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

An increase to DC9 would not be without merit.
It has DC9 in 40k (and most war engines have matching DC between the two systems, fliers excepted).

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An increase to DC9 would not be without merit.
It has DC9 in 40k (and most war engines have matching DC between the two systems, fliers excepted).

I was not aware of that, thanx for pointing that out. As an interesting counter-point over the holidays, my oldest son and I are going to use 40K rules on a Manta and a Warlord just to see what would happen. Probably just run it 2-3 times to see who is king.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I thought the Manta had 10dc in 40k?

I've always seen the Manta as a Reaver equivalent as its not designed to be a planetborn piece of equipment. Yes it can transport stuff, but in 40k so can roks It is primarily a space asset used for anti shipping duties (and able in stats terms to bounce an enemy fighter squadron, something Imperial bombing wings can't do). The toss it against Warlords was something of an emergency measure and the fact they weren't used when available at Taros seems to support this.

Anyway Reaver equivalent in points, damage and firepower. And a Warlord equivalent when dropped.

Incidentally its not a turn 3 drop Honda but the end of turn 1. I do it roughly 75cms at an angle from the enemy blitz. This ups survivability as you avoid turn 1 fire, means you can hopefully sustain for your first activation that turn and be in an excellent position turn 2.

Anyway being called, more later.

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Chris: The Manta in BFG is actually a different configuration, the 'Missile Destroyer' version rather than the Super-Heavy transport version that is seen in Epic / 40k.

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The Manta has 10 Structure Points in Wh40k Apocalypse.

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In essence we are both to lazy to work it out exactly

As to more turning up, marines still aren't coming with more spaceships. Despite the fact it would kill a Chaos drop force. It seems some sort of mutual deterant is in operation currently so they don't turn up but somewhat randomly.



Isn't the Warlord the same?



They are more common being a space asset carried on carriers, but actually a Manta has better armour and better firepower over a Reaver. Indeed on a 1 on 1 I would bet on the Manta. Indeed if its Tau with hero and Manta verses Warlord I would bet on the Manta again.



And shouldn't the planetfalling Manta fall into the same category of use? I think if anything its more likely as the high activation Tau list supports big formations, especially ones that get to miss turn 1's incoming fire.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I still think its primarily a spaceship, not an orbital transport. I see no reason why it should be more alert than an orca when it is used to dealing with environments with millions of miles of open space around.



The 2+ would only be in this set up when it drops and really there it doesn't matter to greatly if you fail 1 activation in 3. Your main weapons are long ranged and hit marked targets on a 2+.



Then you would both be unable to drop in the average small 3000 point game (SC + Manta + Hero 1025 points or whatever) and be the Supreme Commander.



You are better off with A-10s. Used properly they don't get threatened and hit lit targets with 2TK2+(D3) attacks.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Aren't there some old bat reps floating around demonstrating the end of turn 3 drop?


It should be


End turn 1



To 10?


It is supposed to be on par with a reaver damage wise (baring criticals). A Reaver takes 4 hits for shields and 24 hits for armour. A manta on 8DC takes 27 hits total to destroy. (For TK rounds its 4 normal, 6 tk to kill the Reaver, 12 to kill a manta, for MW its 4 hits for shields, 12 to kill a reaver, 18 to kill a Manta). For 10dc that goes up to just under 34 hits. A 4+ inv means for an 8dc Manta its 36 hits average, 24MW and 16 TK.



Without the init change not really a benifit...


Too much for the drop I fell, but as a starting on the board optional upgrade...


In France Americans formed a large number of Tank Destroyer formations expecting massed armour battles to support their undergunned tanks. They never sadly got a chance to test these ideas out


Also remember the Manta cannot be attacked in CC, which is where lots of armies have their titan killing weapons.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

A Manta is 700pts.
A Hero is 200pts.
A SC upgrade is 100pts.

1000pts .
What would be changed to make this combo not playable at 3000pts?

If this is all too much, then I say can the SC upgrade idea for the Manta. It would be interesteing to play as the Re-roll wouldn't be available until the Manta dropped but I'm not interested in making it too complicated to play. I really want this thing to be a 1+ activation no matter who's in it (just like most other races).
As Honda has stated that his preference is for 1+, can we not keep harping on about a change to this?

I'm not really interested in all the little upgrades for the drop Manta / Start on board Manta options. Epic is quite a simple game and I'd love to keep it that way.

I say either Fearless or up the DC a bit and then move on.

Cheers.

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