Actually the TigerShark (both versions) have 2 DC in WH40k. Thats one less than the Marauder.
And the Marauder is only a non-WE with a 4+ Save in Epic.
Both have the same armourvalues in WH40k (all around 10)

Making the TigerShark a WE with DC2 would be OTT.

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Onyx weas focusing on the fluff that suggests the Manta works as a Support Craft, I was pointing out that there is fluff to suggest it also works as a normal flyer.

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Thanks.

One thought I have had would be to replace Free Planetfall with an effect like:  May enter play as a Bomber taking a Ground Attack or Air Assault action.  The Manta may not leave the table in the Air Return step, but rather functions as a skimmer and is activated as a normal unit.

That at least would represent its aircraft nature, although that might be needlessly complex.

I updated the first post again with some thoughts on the Moray, but I am going to post all of the Air Caste stats here for comparison.

Barracuda                 2 for 175 with +1 for 75 points
Fighter-bomber
Save 6+
Ion Cannon 45cm, AP4+/AT5+,  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AP4+/AA6+
Missile Pod 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

TigerShark               2 for 225
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Ion Cannon 45cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile

TigerShark AX-1-0            2 for 350
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Railcannon 45cm, MW3+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
Burst Cannons 15cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile

Moray                 Cost ??
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
Twin-Linked Railcannon  75cm, MW3+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
OR
4x Twin-Linked  Ion Cannon 60cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
2x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc
2x Seeker Missile  AT5+  Guided Missile

DC 3, Reinforced Armour, 5+ Tau Deflector, Always Popped Up, Planetfall
Critical:  The Tau Deflector is disabled and is unavailable for the rest of the game, further criticals add 1 point of damage.
The Moray may be armed with a Railcannon or Ion Cannons, not both.

Manta                           700 Points
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
Twin-Linked Railcannon  105cm, MW2+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
3x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Ion Cannon 90cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
4x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc

DC 8, Reinforced Armour, 5+ Tau Deflector, Always Popped Up, Transport (unchanged), Planetfall

Critical:  The Tau Deflector is disabled and is unavailable for the rest of the game, further criticals add 1 point of damage.


I tried to put these together as a whole so they all fit the same pattern and each has a role.  The toughest thing is keeping the AX-1-0 and TK Moray in different roles.  The easiest solution would be to only have the Ion Cannons on the Moray, but I doubt that would be a popular choice.

I am actually pretty satisfied with my representation of the Manta as being "what it is".  The weapons are equivalent to what the 40k version has, 5+ armor matches up pretty well with its 40k stats as well.  It is equivalent in firepower and survivability to a Reaver Titan, which is a front line battle titan, while having the ability to deliver troops in an assault via Planetfall and support them with 8 FF dice.  It is less powerful than the current incarnation, but I think that is a good thing and at 700 points I believe it priced fairly and at a cost where it will see use, but not be a no-brainer for inclusion in a list.

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Except for the range (reduced to 45cm for aircraft), all the big railguns should have the same stats, MW3+ TK(d3).  The AX10 carries the exact same guns as a Manta, so why wouldn't the Moray (*Assuming that we keep the Moray as another TK source*)?

I'd like to get the Tau aircraft balanced, but I think the biggest problem is the initial SG aircraft.  Everyone else got the nice Forgeworld aircraft stats, even the Eldar, but the Thunderbolt (and Ork Fighta-bomma) sucks.  SG TBolt has storm bolters, a Multilaser, and underwing rockets, while the Forgeworld TBolt has 2x twin autocannon, a twin lascannon, and either bombs, Hellstrike missiles, or Skystrike missiles.  SG Fighta-bomma has Heavy shootas and Tankbusta Rokkits, while the FW fighta-bomba has 2x twin big shootas, plus a dorsal turret twin big shoota, and bombs or Rokkits.

Since all the fighters in the initial game have been down-gunned by 50% or more, may I suggest combining the Ion Cannon and the Interceptor Missiles on the Barracuda?  This lets us keep "all" the weapons, but since it has a different name, we can give it the appropriate statline (30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+).  I don't think we can justify NOT having the 360 burst cannons, even on the 'Cuda, but we should probably leave the Aircraft Seeker missiles off the 'Cuda.  This pretty much brings the firepower of the 'Cuda down to the SG TBolt, which is where the 'Cuda should be (the full load of the 'Cuda is comparable to the FW TBolt).  Also, a Cuda should be a Fighter-bomber, as it's just as maneuverable as a TBolt.

This gives us a 'Cuda profile like this:
Barracuda
Fighter-Bomber, 6+save
Ion Cannon and Missile Pods, 30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Twin-linked Burst Cannons, 15cm AP4+/AA5+

Tiger Shark
Bomber, 4+ save
Twin Ion Cannon and Missile Pods, 30cm AP3+/AT3+/AA4+ Fixed Forward Arc
Twin-linked Burst Cannons, 15cm AP4+/AA5+
EITHER Aircraft Guided Missiles, 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Guided Missiles
OR Aircraft Tracer Missiles, 45cm MW5+ Guided Missiles
Transport:  4x Drones or Heavy Drones

Possibly separate the Missile Pods from the Twin Ion Cannon, because that makes the AX10 look like this:
Tiger Shark AX-1-0
Bomber, 4+ Save
Twin light railcannon, 45cm MW3+ Titan Killer (d3), Fixed Forward Arc
Twin-linked Burst Cannons, 15cm AP4+/AA5+
Aircraft Guided Missiles, 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Guided Missiles
Markerlight

Both of the TSharks are a little light on ground attack if you lump the Missile Pods together with the Ion Cannons, compared with a Marauder.

Twin-linked Missile Pods, 30cm AP5+/AT5+, Fixed Forward Arc

no AA capabilities, because the TSharks step on the air-superiority toes of the 'Cudas if we gave them more AA.

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Well Shmitty, these are a bit different. At first glance you have removed the DC2, but significantly up-gunned the aircraft. Could you explain the thinking here? Personally, I would really like to ignore the 'fluff' a second and just ask how many of what kind of attacks we envisage the formations having?

As a straight comparison,
Thunderbolts Formation (150) armour 6+
2x (15cm) AP4+
2x (30cm) AT4+
2x (30cm) AP5+/AT6+

Marauders formation (300) armour 4+
2x (45cm) AT4+
4BP(15cm) AP4+/AT5+

Ork Fighter bomber (150) armour 6+
3x (15cm) AP5+
3x (30cm) AT4+

Nightwings formation (300) armour 4+
3x (30cm) AP4+
3x (30cm) AT4+ lance

Phoenix bombers (400) armour 5+ RA
3x (30cm) AP4+
3x (45cm) AT4+
3BP(15cm) AT4+/AT5+

==================================
proposed T/S stats seem to be along the lines of :-
Armour 4+ (so as good as Eldar Nightwings)
6x AP shots of various types and ranges (twice that of any formation)
OR
8x AT shots of various types and ranges (nearly 3x that of most formations - and this is ignoring the MW TK weapons on the AX-1-0!)

Cost:- 225 (so a bit more than Thunderbolts / Ork Fb)
==================================
If we were to retrofit the 'average' costings of the earlier a/c onto the stats proposed for the T/s, I would suggest they would be nearer the 500-700 mark to acheive similar firepower and resilience, which is obviously a nonsense.

Perhaps we could do this in reverse rather than look at the 'fluff' or WYSIWYG for a moment. How many AP/AT shots should the formation yield for the desirable points range of 200-300 points??

Regarding the TK weapons, again how many TK shots should be provided??

If we start on this basis, I am sure we will arrive at a more acceptable configuration

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

LoS, I think this view is actually key here (and in the Chaos lists, which are also a bit OTT). However, as these a/c do a job at a level that does not overpower the game, I agree we really must take the lead presented and severely "under-gun" any new a/c.  

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I see your Point Ginger, and the is excellent analysis, thank you for the effort.  My thinking was to represent the models and 40k stats as well as could be and see where they ended up.  You are very correct in that the T/S appear to be overgunned relative to other bombers.

Given that the Phoenix and Marauder use BPs how many 'shots' would you translate that as?  If you can catch 3 models per template it gives you quite a few more than just the one shot you have it listed as.

One quick solution that works for me would be to take the AP shot away from the Burst cannons.  I believe those are primarily for air defense and given the short burst cannon range and their drone controlled nature they might not be ideal strafing tools.

Compared to the Marauder and Phoenix i would suggest:

Tiger Shark (2 for 300pts)
Bomber, 4+ save
Twin Ion Cannon 30cm AP3+/AT4+ Fixed Forward Arc
Twin-linked Burst Cannons, 15cm AA5+
Twin Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Aircraft Seeker Missiles, 45cm AT4+ Guided Missiles Fixed Forward Arc
Transport:  4x Drones or Heavy Drones

Tiger Shark AX 1-0-(2 for 350pts)
Bomber, 4+ save
Heavy Railgun, 45cm MW3+ TK(D3) Fixed Forward Arc
Twin-linked Burst Cannons, 15cm AA5+
Twin Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Transport:  4x Drones or Heavy Drones

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I really like what you did Ginger in laying out shots per formation.  That is a good way to look at it.  I think the Barracuda is looking fine where it is as a fighter-bomber relative to the other forces.

The T/S is tough to compare to those other bombers though.  The reason being the BP weapons.  we know that the Tau don't use those, but one would expect you can hit more than one target with an attack.  There would be times using those that you might just hit one thing, but imagine a broken unit packed behind a hill hiding, you can certainly hit more than 3 units per template there.

So, if you said each template was worth 3 shots you get:

Marauders formation (300) armour 4+
2x (45cm) AT4+
6x (15cm) AP4+/AT5+

Phoenix bombers (400) armour 5+ RA
3x (30cm) AP4+
3x (45cm) AT4+
3x (15cm) AP4+/AT5+

Helltalon Bombers armour 5+   FB  (300)
2x (45cm) AT4+
2x (45cm) AP5+/AT6+
6x (15cm) AP4+/AT5+

so, 8-9 ground attacks per formation on average.  That is actually pretty similar to what you outlined the TS having.  Even if you only assume 2 per template you still have a comparable number of shots to what the T/S puts out.

I'd say shmitty has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

One thing though - the Moray critical doesn't make much sense. Given that it's 3 DC a second critical will always kill it, so why not change it to show that? Or make the first critical kill it like most DC3 super heavy vehicles.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Weeeelll, I would recommend treating AP and AT shots separately, and also consider the relative strengths. If you turn these into hit probabilities you get :-

Maurader (Bomber) (300)
~3x AP hits
~3x AT hits

Phoenix Bombers (FB) (400)
~3x AP hits
~2.5 AT hits

Helltalon Bombers (FB) (300)
~3.6 AP hits
~3.3 AT hits

(IMHO, the Phoenix bombers are a tad over-priced, so perhaps 375-350, while the Helltalons could be a bit cheap so perhaps 325. Most seem to agree the Mauraders are overpriced so perhaps 275)
===========================================
Taking BL's stats a second (just as they are there) we get

TigerShark (Bomber) (300)
~3.3 AP hits
~2.6 AT hits

AX-1-0 (Bomber) (350)
~2.3 AP hits (of which 1.3 are TK)
~2.0 AT hits (of which 1.3 are TK(D3) )

All of which seem much more in line, though perhaps slightly too 'under-gunned' and I would suggest that 300 points would be sufficient for both formations, the drop in potential hits for the AX-1-0 being compensated by TK - Thanks BL.  

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Agreed.

In the past, I've proposed a critical with the same effect as the Reaver/Warlord. Something along the lines of Reactor damage - Roll a D6 at turns end, on a 6 Reactor explodes destroying vehicle.

This was when the Moray and Manta were considerably more powerful than the proposals floating around now. If these units remain at present (4.4.3) firepower/abilities, then tough criticals help balance them out.

The proposed reduction in the armour saves and changes to the Deflector shield will mean more damage being taken and more opportunity for criticals. Maybe something slightly less harsh would be needed.

Onyx weas focusing on the fluff that suggests the Manta works as a Support Craft, I was pointing out that there is fluff to suggest it also works as a normal flyer.

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