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Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
Moscovian
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:45 pm 
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Taking a step back from all the minutia and bridging to other threads in the past, the biggest Tau problem is the HUGE amount of units at their disposal. ?I made comments before that I felt this aspect of the list made it difficult to balance but given other people's responses I'd say it is dang near impossible.

Cybershadow, you know I love you, man (feel the love!), but I really think you've got to cut back on the options. ?You've mentioned the possibility of variant lists in the past but you've left no room for them to exist (why bother limiting your options when you can have it all?). ?I see two good options:

1. Cut back on the main list by removing a lot of units. ?This allows for variant lists to be built. ?The plus side is you can more easily build a list in this fashion. ?The down side is you have players who now have temporarily unusable units while the variant lists are created.

2. Build the auxilliary lists like I've suggested. ?This has received a tremendous amount of support since it gives every player the option to field all units (and even future potential units) but just not all in the same army. ?The Tau are a regimented caste society anyway so them dividing things up makes a lot of sense fluffwise, logistically, and helps internal balance. ?Use the divided auxillaries concept as your opportunity to limit the lists.

Jervis once said that a list is defined as much by its limitations as its abilities. ?Right now the Tau have NO limitations other than the player's model availability. ?This more than anything IMO accounts for the wide disparity in results across the globe and that just shouldn't be. ?A person with more money to buy models shouldn't win more often. ?No I am not referring to the Manta:) just having a wide variety of models on hand in general.

Lastly, I have a long standing opinion that the Armored Cadre has no place in the Tau core formations. ?Moving it will solve a lot of problems. ?Once again, if people WANT an Armored Tau list then a variant list can be built (under option 1 or option 2 above). ?And if somebody wants to field ALL their Tau stuff in one game then just do it, but do it knowing it is a friendly game and outside the tournament list(s).




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:16 pm 
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(asaura @ Jun. 09 2008,16:07)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 09 2008,10:38)
QUOTE
Which is possibly why the Tau aren't dominating in your area?

OT: This is the kind of comment that will have me steer clear of this thread. As Hena said, put up (with BRs) or shut up.

Hey that's unfair... I didn't create this thread expecting to kick off this kind of debate... I merely mentioned that my group are now using a modified version of the FW list (Modded with updates from the current SG list mostly) as it feels more 'Tau-ish' and CS asked me to explain further.

I said I'd try and get some battle reports done to further explain in the very post you just bounced on me for... what more can I say at this point?


I think it'd be useful if Jstr could post the list of mods he applied to the FW army list that we've been playing with actually, I can't remember the specifics.


It does raise a question as to whether people would want me to "engineer" the battles so that two people can fight it out for real? What say you all??


That only leads to people making tailored lists ; Do it random is my suggestion.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:43 pm 
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Personally i like variant army list. The more the better :)

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:17 pm 
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The mods to the FW list I used were minimal. Ethereal at 100pts, GM's at a standard 5+ to hit indirect but required the target to be lit up by markerlights, Broadside suits 150 pts for 3 and 350 pts for 6 (they are still about 50 pts too cheap in the SG list), the Ax-1-0 is a 50-75 point upgrade (haven't decided yet, it is less shooty than the SG one), the Orca was not a formation upgrade and was moved to the aircraft section.

For me the reason the list is more balanced and fun is that FW's are easily the best choice in the list (cheap, mobile, a 15cm Disrupt shot, markerlights and one formation is fealess with an inspiring leader). I have often said that the SG list makes them redundant as Morays and Crisis suits are much better in this role and more often than not cheaper. A tooled up unit of FW's is 400 pts, crisis suits are very effective at 325 with just a unit of drones to give them cover. HH's as well are a much better choice as well if you take the 250 pt support formation.

My armies in the past have consisted of 3 uints of Crisis suits, two morays, a barracuda squadron, a stealsuit formation, a Broadside formation, then 2 or 3 units of HH's. With this type of army I managed to put together a winning streak of 12 games on the run against Eldar, Guard, Marines, Chaos, Lost and the Damned and Orks. Only Necrons and TH heavy marine armies caused me significant problems and usually anihiliated me. For me this was another problem with the SG list I either completely dominated my oponent or was dominated the games were almost always over within the first couple of activations of turn two as one of us was obviously going to win. It meant that I just wasn't enjoying playing the list and our Chaos player has point blank refused to play me entirely.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:25 am 
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Maybe make some rules that can't be agreed on as "optional" rules ?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:20 am 
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I've done a rough version of the FW tau list. Forgive me the many mistakes! I'll do a comparison of the unit stats between SG and FW and 40k and also list FW model packs if I get the chance.




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Onyx
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:49 am 
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Thanks for the list TRC :)

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Azathoth
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:17 am 
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First, I have to admit that I never played with Tau, nor against them. I am simple interested in this army and followed the whole discussion on Tau for some time now. Therefore, I will not adress specific stats and rules at this point.

I just thought that it was a good idea, to apply the modifications proposed by Jstr19 to the FW list provided by TRC (Thanks for your work!). I hope that no one takes offence in this.

I will upload them as soon as figure out how to do so. Altough it is just some changed text within the .doc file uploaded by TRC, I cannot post it (There is always the following message: "You cannot upload this type of file.").

Sorry for gumming up your thread with a technical issue... :(
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:30 am 
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Most likely the file is to large.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:42 am 
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Thanks for your comments Azathoth, I'm looking forwards to seeing your own contributions.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:45 am 
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Certainly I would make a lot of changes to it. The whole Orca dropship thing is odd. Is it a seperate formation or a one use transport or a move zero tether?

I'm all in favour of formation sizes tallying with packs (note the FW Firewarriors formation includes half a pack of drones), however the formations are far too small. To keep activation count down and to stop the game descending into a unit for a host of broken 1-3 stand formations I would bulk them up as standard (similar to the SG list). And yes, I would have a lot to say about aircraft, which you may have guessed I take great objection to in the current list!

I guess though you could make a good 'Taros' list with it, a kind of Tau expeditionary force.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:49 am 
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(Azathoth @ Jun. 19 2008,10:17)
QUOTE
I will upload them as soon as figure out how to do so. Altough it is just some changed text within the .doc file uploaded by TRC, I cannot post it (There is always the following message: "You cannot upload this type of file.").

What format is it. The boards accept pdf files, if you can convert it.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:05 pm 
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Azathoth:  grab a copy of Open Office, it can just "save as" a pdf file.  It's also free!

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Azathoth
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:52 am 
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OK, next try ... As I said, this is the FW list TRC was so kind to post with the Jstr19's modifications (as far as I understood them) and with some corrections due to mistakes. Oh, and I added the spacecrafts which are curiously absent from the FW list.

I tried to post it as a .doc, just like TRC did, for easier modifications, but that did not work...

BTW, thanks for your advise, Lion! I use Open Office for some time now, but I never realised it could convert documents into .pdf. Well, I never needed to do this before...  :;):
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:57 am 
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That looks almost right.

One caveat is that we've used the FW Manta stats, but changed 'Speed: Bomber' to 'Speed: 20cm'.

We've also been using the SG stats for the Hammerhead with Ion Cannon (No AA shot).




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