Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 8  Next

Discussions on the Tau.

 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 3:46 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
"If you have a Scorp in your army, then you're probably going to have several, and your entire army will be set up as a markerlight-missile horde.

So yeah, I'd assume its target is always markerlit."
I'd assume so to but it needed to be clarified.

I don't get why you don't use Morays, they're probably the easiest unit in the Tau list to get their points-worth in kills with, regardless of configurationWho says I don't? ?:p
I've tried my Tau in many different formations and I really like the Moray.

I think 50pts was what I proposed as a price rise.We agree! (more or less ?:;): )

They're not too big, they're true 6mm scale.

It's the SG aircraft and War Engines that are (Mostly) too small, and not in scale with the rest of the game.The effect in game terms is still the same so my point stands.

"specially created"I don't want to use an army list that can't be used in a tournament. I have no interest in moving units to the collector section because a (very) small number of folk here have an issue with something being non-canon. Without Morays & ScorpionFish there's a big gap between Manta's and Hammerheads.

If it can be proven that their abilities break the game you might have a point. Thats not the case now.
I don't believe these units should be removed just because they don't fit in with what FW has available (or someones personal view of 40K).

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 3:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Who says I don't?  :p
I've tried my Tau in many different formations and I really like the Moray.


Sorry, my mistake. :)


Without Morays & ScorpionFish there's a big gap between Manta's and Hammerheads.

In the 40k background, the Tau use their aircraft to fill this gap...

Oh, and Orcas... but then, it's not really worth using Orcas under the current rules, because why would you want to move infantry about, when your best units:

- Are Infantry that are very fast on their own (Crisis, Stealths)
- Don't need to move fast because of their exceptional range (Broadsides)
- Are fast moving skimmer tanks.


The Tau don't need the Orca in Epic at all, despite the prominence of the Orca in the background, because they can use Morays to hit targets that lie out of reach of the rest of the army (The Moray has a respectable speed, more than respectable range, and its LOF can never be blocked... if you bring two artillery batteries to a game, and your opponent brings two Morays, you will nigh-always lose your artillery in the first turn...).

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Since it's come up, the current list of non-canon units is:

- Swordfish
- Stingray
- Moray (Both versions)
- Scorpionfish
- (Human aux commander?)


Which of these is/are *essential* to the character of the Tau army list?





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Well the last version of the stingray was essential to the perception of it being overpowered :)

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:30 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
Swarm Tyrant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore
Just jumping in briefly again... I do understand that a few people are not fans of the 'unofficial' constructs in the Tau list. However, I do feel that all of them do add character to the force. For example the Moray fills a valuable slot to bridge the gap between the Manta and the Scorpionfish. The Scorpionfish itself adds a lot of character as a force centre-piece and potential command unit, and the Stingray is an extension of the SkyRay and covers a much needed 'volume firepower' aspect. While I have absolutely no intention of adding any more units, I am reasonably determined to stick with the ones that we already have.

Feel free to continue to debate this, but I thought that I would make my intentions clear.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
the Stingray is an extension of the SkyRay and covers a much needed 'volume firepower' aspect.


I would like to disagree with this.

I don't think the extra 'volume firepower' added by the Stingray is a necessity to the already-shootiest army list in Epic.

The other two vehicles you mentioned certainly do fill gaps (Though whether those gaps should be filled is of course debatable), whilst the Stingray is 'just' another very powerful shooty tank type... I don't see its unique distinctiveness (In fact, to me, it only serves to help homogonise the army list, something the Tau list is already in danger of with all those contingent upgrade options).

JMHO, of course.





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
The Stingray was created to be the equivalent of a Whirlwind, but without being a BP weapon.  JimmyGrill was very emphatic that the Tau would not use BP weapons.  Stingrays are built on the Devilfish APC chassis, not the Hammerhead tank chassis (hence their lighter armor).

The problem is that Stingrays scale better than Whirlwinds do... 4 Whirlwinds (4bp) hit everything under the templates, but since you're never really going to get more than 6 stands under one template (and if you get that many your opponent is way too bunched up!), it puts an upper limit on the effectiveness of the Whirlwind (though this issue is true of *ALL* BP weapons).  4 WW end up with a theoretical 12-stand effect fairly easily, and 4 Stingrays have an 8 ap/4 at effect, period.  1-3 WW will always get ~6 stands of effect, but while 3 Stingrays are slightly more effective than 3 WW are, 1-2 WW can get more targets (at lesser chance of effect) than 1-2 Stingrays.

I think the problem is that people are using the Stingray as a tank, not as a highly-mobile artillery vehicle.  As much as I like the SMS, maybe that needs to go away to reduce the temptation to use Stingrays in close support of other vehicles?

The Swordfish was created as an example of the Tau VDR, so there has been a 'published mini' in a GW Chapter Approved (even though that mini was a conversion).  Personally, I don't like the model or the idea of a "Tau Vanquisher", but it's certainly easier to convert in Epic than 40k.

The Moray is something I like better than the Scorpfish, but both ideas are mentioned briefly in GW fluff, not fanfic.  I think the Scorpfish could use a bit of tweaking (it doesn't have to be a 'flying Superheavy tank', as I don't really see the Tau making use of such vehicles).  During the design phase, one of the ideas that was kicked around was an 'Orca Gunship' like the AC130 Spectre.  The problem with the AC130 is that it's horribly vulnerable to real AA capability, like a SAM (the airframe is tough enough to shrug off just about any modern AA gun, but an 88 would probably do it in), and is significantly slower than most combat air support (Even A10s outrun a loaded C130!).  Right now, the Scorpfish is too much 'flying SHT', and not enough 'Orca Gunship' IMO.

The Human Aux commander isn't specifically mentioned in IA3 that I remember, but the Human Aux in that book only appeared in the 40k scenarios, where company-or-higher command teams don't show up anyway.  I would argue that a Human Aux commander would be canon if someone had thought enough about the military organization to realize that Tau almost certainly would NOT directly order squad placement, but would instead rely on a 'local militia leader' to run 'his' forces.  IMO, this omission comes from no-one at GW having real military experience.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:33 am
Posts: 340
The very concept of Tau artillery has never felt right to me. The Fleet Air Arm should be their artillery Morays, Mantas and Aircraft. I don't think that artillery pieces are needed in the list at all and hardly ever use them. Its not as if the Tau needed any other ways to avoid getting shot at while pouring fire into the enemy.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:33 pm
Posts: 5
Location: UK

(Evil and Chaos @ May 20 2008,11:24)
QUOTE
If you have a Scorp in your army, then you're probably going to have several, and your entire army will be set up as a markerlight-missile horde.

So yeah, I'd assume its target is always markerlit. :)

Scorpfish was going to be the centre-piece of my army, now I'm entirely unsure... If I take it I'm accused of powergaming with marker/missile spamfest, if I don't I have nothing larger than a Hammerhead sized model to compete with the titans my opponent is likely to field (at approx 3k pts). As I'm an epic newb I'm not confident to bring air-power to the table so soon and a large skimmer with tons of firepower that can act as my commander was a shoe-in to my list. I'd be gutted if within a year the unit is removed from the list as it'll take me that long to build/paint the damn army.






Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:33 am
Posts: 340
Against Titans Broadsides and Morays almost always do the trick. Broadsides strip the shields then Morays kill them. I cant see a scorpion fish being useful in taking them down. The scorpion fish in my opinion is their purely as a virtually unkillable Supreme Commander that can deal a decent amount of fire and act as an AA battery. I personally want to see it removed from the list completely.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:33 pm
Posts: 5
Location: UK
Well don't hold back there Jstr19, say what you're thinking don't bottle it all up!

I wasn't including the SF to go toe to toe with titans, you take me too literally. It was the 'most' suitable option as Supreme Commander as it seemed (from the perspective of a total epic newb) to be the most survivable of the commander choices.

What makes you so non-judgemental about the Moray, after all it's a 'non-canon' unit too isn't it?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:33 am
Posts: 340
My complaint about the Scorpion fish has nothing to do with it being non-canon. Its more to do with list balance. I'm not sure the list needs it I don't think it fills any gap in the list apart from the previously mentioned vortually unkillable SC. The moray I can see it does fill a gap giving the Tau a reliable, surbivable anti-titan weapon that is cheap enough to be fielded in a 3K game. It also nicely fills the gap between HH's and the Manta. I admit I rarely take to the field without two although it is probably a bit too cheap and overgunned. The Scorpion fish is too cheap, packs too much firepower with 6 AP5+ (almost always 3+) ignore cover shots making it better than pretty much any BP weapon and it can effectively become a moray. It is in my opinion a Super Moray with all the benefits but none of its admitedly small drawbacks.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:33 pm
Posts: 5
Location: UK
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Scorpionfish the only Supreme commander option other than a upgrading a Crisis suit? Take that away and you force anyone wanting an SC to take a short range not particularly survivable Crisis SC.

Now as I said before (look at my post count) I am a newb to epic so correct me if I'm wrong here but I'd want my commander anywhere but on the frontline... Especially for this army it's Tau not Blood Angels.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:33 am
Posts: 340
Almost all the epic armies have this same problem. The SC has to be in a relatively fragile unit. The Crisis suit SC is actually very hard to deal with compared to other SC units. It has a 3+ AS which is better than most, you can surround it with Gun Drone units or Stealth units to take the hits first. Gun Drones don't even generate blast makers in the formation and Stealth suits have Reinforced armour to protect them from Macro hits, and the Tau Jet pack rule makes them almost impossible to engage him if your being careful. My regular opponents have all but given up attempting to engage my units with the Jet pack rule as it only happens when I have a rush of blood and make a mistake. All in all the battle suit cadre is actually a farily safe place to have a SC compared to armies like Guard, Eldar, Orks etc.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Discussions on the Tau.
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:18 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
The Moray is something I like better than the Scorpfish, but both ideas are mentioned briefly in GW fluff, not fanfic.


The attack-Orca (Scorpionfish) mentioned in the fluff is (Correct me if I'm wrong) listed as an offensive and mobile bomber, not a stationary 'virtually unkillable' missile platform for the SC to hide in.


I think the Scorpfish could use a bit of tweaking (it doesn't have to be a 'flying Superheavy tank', as I don't really see the Tau making use of such vehicles).  During the design phase, one of the ideas that was kicked around was an 'Orca Gunship' like the AC130 Spectre.

In comparison to the vehicle we have, that sounds kinda cool: An upgunned Orca which sacrifices its transport capacity for a bunch of shots.

But then it's just one more bomber amongst many aircraft, and just looks extraneous to needs again.





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 112 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 8  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net