Without putting counters on table.  While I can get enough counters to cover any army I'd play (if I can find my box of SFB... drones, so many drone counters), you lose some of the visual appeal of the game (I don't like counters for the most part...)
A pool of shots is plausible, but I'm not convinced it's neccesary.

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(Tip toes back into the murky waters of the Tau development)

I like Dobbsy's idea but also share Zombo's concerns that you get weird situations with no GM toting units on the board.  It's too bad since it seems like such a good idea on the surface.

I think everyone agrees that the Tau need more than 1 MW (crisis) and 3 (AX10, Moray, Manta) TK shots in the army, so you need some kind of extra MW

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

What about something to this effect:

Drop the Seeker Missile attack from the Devilfish, HH, Swordfish, and Piranha.  (The vehicles that only carry 2 missiles each.)

Scorpionfish, Skyray, and Stingray stay as is, except for the ML requirement for shooting.  Aircraft can be looked at later, but likely drop the GM attacks from the Manta and Moray (which need to be toned down a bit anyway.)

Add ML to FWs.  

Taking a cue from how Commisars are handled, the Tau player receives 1 Seeker Missile Spread per 500 points in the army.  The spread may be fired along with a normal shooting attack by any infantry formation with MLs.  The Spread would be something like 3x AT5+  RNG 30cm.

So, that means one Spread per formation, not unit, per shooting action.

Ok, so what does this accomplish, well there is a good reason to take FW and Pathfinders.  It Gets rid of the silly idea that a Piranha, which carries 2 Seeker Missiles, can be firing them the whole game.  Of course, the Piranha loses a lot of its appeal and would have to be re-costed or re-armed (Fusion Blaster anyone?)


Again, just brainstorming.

Epic is about abstraction used to represent a simulation, not a true simulation.

Although in theory it'd be more accurate to track how many GM's you have in your army, and have Pathfinders remotely calling them in, and be noting down which vehicles had fired their GM's, in practice it'd be really complicated to play a game whilst doing all that.

In practice, the proposed revision to the current system does a reasonable job of representing how a guided missile is fired at a target (Target is Markerlit, then Missile can be fired).


Now, as optional upgrades, the Guided Missiles should probably be removed from most of the Tau vehicles as it's a general (Although not absolute) rule of Epic army list development not to represent upgrades which are 'optional' in 40k... but that's a whole different kettle of fish.  

Oh and kill the Stingray and the Scorpionfish, because, y'know...  

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This is just as good a solution to me.  I really feel that GMs are over-represented in the list and have been throwing around ideas that would keep them in there but in an appropriate way.  Removing them where they are merely an option seems appropriate.

A pool of GM/SM dependant on the size of the army sounds good to me.
You could have 3 shots per 500 points in the army. Every unit with ML could call one shot.

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Welcome back to the insanity, Mosc!

I never played the "orbiting cloud of seeker missiles" that I was commenting on, but I do have some concerns about the viability of the list with a 15cm MW and a 45cm TK or three.  Tau don't need them in 40k because there's no War Engines in 40k.  Tau do need a way to deal with WE/Titans in Epic.

I think everyone agrees that the Tau need more than 1 MW (crisis) and 3 (AX10, Moray, Manta) TK shots in the army, so you need some kind of extra MW

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

I would've thought Railgun Hammerheads and Broadside Battle Suits were the Tau answer to Titans... a co-ordinated attack using formations with such units should obliterate a Reaver and seriously harm a Warlord using an equal amount of points...

Tau have the massed AT fire to bring down war engines without the need for many MW/TK weapons.

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Following the present Seeker missile discussion would make Manticore's Single shot aswell...
They are not because it is assumed that there are support vehicles /personel rearming them as needed.

The same can be said for Tau vehicles. Now hopefully we can put this single shot stuff aside.

Like hena, I don't see much wrong with the present GM/ML rules. IF GM's are going to be totally dependant on ML's to fire then GM's should see a slight increase in effectiveness. My hope would be for Lance with a 75cm range with a base to Hit of 5+ (incorporating the ML bonus).

I do not want to see GM's removed from vehicles.

I have resisted adding anything to this discussion until now because I didn't want to buy into the 'he who shouts loudest and most often wins the debate'.
Also, I have nothing really new (to any of my previous points) to add so I'll wait until I do. Hopefully we can try to avoid continued repetition...

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Well but Manticores are slow-firing

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And I knew someone would mention that...
Make no difference.

Point is, they are not Single shot and neither should GM's be..

I appologise if my previous post is a little black and white.

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I would've thought Railgun Hammerheads and Broadside Battle Suits were the Tau answer to Titans... a co-ordinated attack using formations with such units should obliterate a Reaver and seriously harm a Warlord using an equal amount of points...

Tau have the massed AT fire to bring down war engines without the need for many MW/TK weapons

Well at least for the IMperialGuard the Trojan is mentioned which is available to supply ammuntion to eg Manticores.
I know nothing similar for other races in WH40k. And i find it hard to imagine a resupplying vehilce which scoots around the battlefield to resupply vehicles with new secondary armament.

Would be the same as a Trojan driving around to resupply Hunter-Killer missiles on Imperial vehicles during a fight.

For Artillery like Manticores, Basilisk and in the case of Tau Sky Rays i find it much more believeable to have ammunition tenders nearby than any other vehicle type.

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I understand the Manticore analogy and the fact that it must be re-loaded is the source of the Slow-Firing.

But, I do think a Manticore is a very different thing from a Piranha.  The Manticore is having its primary armament re-loaded over the course of a turn.  For a Piranha, it is a scout vehicle with no cargo space for reloads and typically operating forward of the lines where reloads would be available..  In the case of a Piranha the Seeker is far closer in nature to a Hunter-Killer missile than anything else.

I do agree with Dobbsy and LitS about the lack of MWs.  I think Tracers should stick around, but the Seeker Missiles are not being represented in a way that is consistent with the models, other games, or the background.