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Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:59 pm 
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It seems a somewhat bizzarre sequence. Tau design transport. Discover its good against kilometre long spaceships.
What would happen if they designed traffic calming measures for human colony worlds? :)

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:56 am 
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I'm afraid to say the Manta's primary mission has always been what you list as it's tertiary mission. Armada specifically notes that it was created during the Tau'n campaign as a more efficient method of delivering troops from orbit to the planet...including hot-zones.


It seems a somewhat bizzarre sequence. Tau design transport. Discover its good against kilometre long spaceships.


hmm... I don't know about BFG: and its Armada book prespective, but from the battlefield perspective of the first Tau codex - i.e. the original Tau fiction game reference we have, it clearly states... oh heck, I'll just quote it word for word for everyone's personal edification....

page 15, Tau Codex, circa 2001

GRAND TACTICAL EQUIPMENT

MANTA MISSILE DESTROYERS

The Manta Missile Destroyer is the nearest Tau equivalent of Human Titans or Ork Gargants. It is a dropship, several times larger than a Thunderhawk gunship, which is capable of operating as either a skimmer or a flyer on the battleifled. In space it is a match for whole squadrons of Imperial fighters and is on the borderline between being an attack craft and a full starship. It is equipped with an ether drive, but is not nearly as fast as a true starship over interstellar distances. Each Manta carries a full Hunter Cadre of Between fifty and one hundred Tau. All the troops carried will either be mounted in gravitic vehicles or equipped with jet packs, and can all deploy from the Manta Missile Destroyer at altitude.

The Manta Missile Destroyer is well shielded and is armed with heavy railguns. The guns fire a heavy shell that uses fins for additional lift to give it remarkable range in atmosphere. Each shell is fitted with a Tau drone processor, which is programmed to direct the shell to its target. The drone is equipped with a manoeuvring thruster for this purpose. As the Manta nears its target, batteries of close-ranged ion cannons take over. It serves as a drop ship and heavy fire support for the Tau forces. Its distinctive silhouette is rightly feared by the Tau empire's enemies.


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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:07 am 
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I had originally at some point back in this discussion mentioned the idea that Support Craft should be able to enter play as Fliers, but once on the field they hang around as Support Craft. Anything capable of launching itself into orbit and back will be able to sustain atmospheric flight for at least a little time (And those of you who think the space shuttle, it doesn't launch itself it's launched by outside items). That would fit best IMHO. it comes in, gets fired at by flak, descends to standard levels, and continues on as a support craft. The risk is there both on the approach and post-approach to have it be damaged, and it's not just a cheap and easy way to instantly get it wherever it wants to be. The idea for this was that it'd extend to all Support Craft.

"Support Craft may be held in reserve as aircraft. All such craft count as speed of Bomber. When activated in such mode they MUST undertake a Ground Attack action, and at the end of that action they remain on field using their stat-line instead of leaving at the end of the turn."

I think that'd be easy enough to understand, really. The ship comes in at high speed, breaks hard, dumps off it's cargo, then hangs around. But it doesn't really land it just doesn't depart the field after dropping stuff off.


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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:15 am 
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If you all care for a more recent reference...

IA3: Taros Campaign, page 208, circa 2005

MANTA

The Manta is the Tau's Super-heavy dropship, it is so large that it is actually a small spacecraft. The Manta is the Tau's closest equivalent of the Imperium's Titans or Ork Gargants, and carries comparable firepower. It is well armed and armoured for use in frontline combat, where it is expected to deploy and fight as an attack craft.

A Manta carries a fearsome amount of firepower. Its main weapons are twin heavy railguns. These guns fire a fin stabalised round for extra lift (and therefore extra range) whilst in an atmosphere. The heavy railgun's submunitions shell is equipped with a drone processor, which is programmed to direct the shell to its target. This is mostly used during starship combat, to find weak points in the armour of enemy ships (sub-munitions lacking the penetrating power of the standard round), but is also useful in ground combat. As back-up to the main weapons, the Manta mounts twin ion cannon batteries in its wings. These provide shorter ranged saturation fire when in the thick of battle.

The rest of the manta's arsenal consists of prow-mounted launch ports for up to ten Seeker missiles. These can be controlled by the crew, or by other Markerlight operators on the ground. The Manta's last weapons are its sixteen drone-controlled burst cannon turrets. These are positioned all around the Manta's hull for close defence whilest landed and as anti-aircraft weapons when in flight. The turrets are positioned so that all angles of approach are covered by multiple burst cannons.

The Manta is the Tau's smallest interstellar capable spacecraft. It has limited etherdrive capacity, but because of its size a Manta can only make very short hops, restricting its use. For longer trips it must be transported inside the far larger carriers. As a spacecraft, Mantas are entirely crewed by members of the Air Caste.

As well as its firepower the Manta has a large transport capactiy. The ships main body is split into two tranport desks. The upper deck holds troops or battlesuits, whilst the cavernous lower deck can hold up to four (fully loaded) Devilfish or Hammerheads. The entire lower transport deck is an elevator, which is lowered to allow access. It can also be fitted to carry extra troops, battlesuites, Kroot, or just about any vehicle or equipment operated by the Fire Caste.

As well as its own cockpit, each Manta also contains a sophisticated command bridge. From here a Tau commander can oversee battlefield operations. This allows a Manta to act as a forward command post, fire control and communications hub.

On Taros, Mantas were widely used to transport the Hunter Cadres and their heavy equipment into the deserts, positioning the troops for counter-attacks and quickly extract them afterwards. Their fleet of mantas gave the Tau forces superior strategic mobility over the ground-based Imperial Guard. This allowed the outnumbered Tau Hunter Cadres to match the Imperial Guard in equal force for local counter-attacks and battles.


I think its pretty much undeniable that Tau field the manta as an Attack Craft on the 40K / Epic battlefield.

On Taros with mass open desserts, the transport capacity was of notable value though.

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:21 am 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 01 June 2006 (20:07))
I had originally at some point back in this discussion mentioned the idea that Support Craft should be able to enter play as Fliers, but once on the field they hang around as Support Craft.

This is why CS wants to work it as a self-Planetfall capable unit.

So not exactly what you are after, but our Champions version of a comprimise to your request perhaps.

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:44 am 
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Hmm, very interesting though:

If we go with 'enter play as aircraft' rather than 'planetfall', that'd make it susceptible to interception...woudln't it?

Of course, it'd only be targetable by the AT(or better) shots of a fighter or fighter bomber...but it's an interesting thought.

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:55 am 
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It would be a susceptable to Intercept. And since it would technically still be an aircraft at that point (Until it finishes the Ground Attack action) it would suffer hits from all AA attacks. I think it'd be neat. It's a little more painful for them, but not a lot. And the Support Craft generally have sufficient durability to allow them to survive any fire of that type they come under.


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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:57 am 
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Not only that, but it'd force players to go through the air-entry rigmarole(sp?) of avoiding flak...

Quite a bit more interesting *and* plausible than Planetfall or Teleport...but whether it's *worthwhile* is a different matter...

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Of course, it'd only be targetable by the AT(or better) shots of a fighter or fighter bomber...but it's an interesting thought.

Indeed, that's a descrepancy I didn't noticed so far: some weapons are AA/AP, and cannot damage a landed aircraft! :80:

Xisor
Quite a bit more interesting *and* plausible than Planetfall or Teleport...but whether it's *worthwhile* is a different matter...

It won't be ultimate for the Manta itself. It's a virtually unlimited double move. Not bad, but the Manta is somewhat focused on doubling and may not take other orders on turn 1. Nor can it be coordinate-fired.

Now considering the transported units, it's much more worthwhile for them as the Manta becomes an instrument of the Mont'Ka. Transported units can be deployed in effective range of the ennemy.





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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:58 pm 
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Quote (baronpiero @ 02 June 2006 (13:31))
Indeed, that's a descrepancy I didn't noticed so far: some weapons are AA/AP, and cannot damage a landed aircraft! :80:

(Appologies for going a bit OT) Thinking out loud I guess that's more of a burst issue.  In order to bring an aircraft out of the sky you only need a bit of shrapnel to cut a control cable, get sucked into the engine etc.  But the same weapon fired at a grounded aircraft is less likely to have such a damaging effect (it's the falling out of the sky that does most of the damadge.  Scratch that:  it's the hitting the ground that does it!).  By the same token, it's more likely to take out infantry with the blast and fragmentation.  [This is itended as more of a "ho, hum" so please don't start on the differences between a what a heavy bolter and a las cannon would do to thunderbolt or a baracuda due to the different nature of thier construction!]

Back on topic:

The Manta is the Tau's smallest interstellar capable spacecraft.


So it's more than capable of planetfalling from a base on another planet/moon in the same system or even from the next star system without a parent ship bringing it into LEO.  So for the purposes of an Epic battle, self planetfall is not out of character.

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:06 pm 
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It's not out of character for it, no. *But* I think I've came round on the issue and feel that the abstraction for the Planetfall ability itself.

It may well be able to drop from orbit...but can it do it discretely and quick enough? Over a combat zone?

If it was to do it, then of course it is 'more' independnent than most other craft (including the Vampire), but whether it is more capable or deserving is somewhat different.

For now I prefer the 'half-aircraft' idea, but it's no longer an especially big deal either way so long as it looks good.

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:30 pm 
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This might not be the right place to ask (well the thread is about the manta and tweaking it, so it might be), but anyhow.  Why can the Manta only off load trop when it planetfall?

It seems a bit strange that it bobs down on the inital landing, to let everyone out.  Then rises up to far for its transport decks to be used.

Considering most of what it carries has access to anti-grav engines to help them float down (or can hitch a ride in such a vehicle)

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:11 pm 
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Ragnarok, its part of the abstraction for the benefit of the E:A rule system and scale meant to reflect the unit's relative impact on that front.

Although it buses armies to and from major engagements, Mantas are primarily used as heavy support gunboat battleships until the engagement concludes. After which, they either fly back to the mother ship, fly to a neighboring planet, bus the recently deployed army to another location, or they alone dispach as support to different location as support in that new theatre for another contingent (group of cadres)

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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:34 pm 
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...And of course, is used when the Aun wants to go cruising for some hot Tau-chicks!


Pimp my Manta, indeed.



Terrible, I know.


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 Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:22 pm 
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LOL, you should see the hydraulic work on Nerroth's Manta... :p

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