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Cadres
Jstr19
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:06 pm 
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I'm not sure that limiting core choices will make FW's more likely to be used. My experience with them has at least in my opinion proven that they just don't have a useful purpose in the Tau list. Sure you can get a 20 stand monster fearless formation which will pack a hell of a punch when shooting. But in my experience it always gets its ass kicked in the ensuing Fire Fight. I don't think that non-Jump Pack infantry will ever be worth taking in the current list.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:26 pm 
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Well in my MTO&Es, FW in D/Fish IFVs are Core and the plethora of Tau MBTs in Support ... :alien:

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:54 pm 
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You could have a list with the tanks in support and a list with the FW in support - guess which I'd go for :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:53 pm 
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Yes, TRC, we all know you have a tank fetish.  :p  But a tank list will be balanced differently than the standard Tau list.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:28 pm 
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And no, I don't see the need to remove battlesuits

I didn't mean it in that respect Mosc'. I meant hypothetically that along that line of thinking, Battlesuits fall under the same umbrella as armour would in that any Cadre could be taken over FWs if a player so chooses - I wasn't trying to be deliberately annoying. Sorry if it seemed that way.

but surely you see that by limiting the number of cores available the FWs will be more likely to show up.
But that's my point. With any other core types available that won't necessarily happen. There's still another choice of Cadre and so far FWs haven't gotten a big wrap from anyone who has used them - except L4 ;)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:52 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jun. 28 2007,20:53)
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Yes, TRC, we all know you have a tank fetish.  :p  But a tank list will be balanced differently than the standard Tau list.

The current list pretty much *IS* a tank list.


It has several different types of fan-made tanks and super-heavies (Scorpionfish, Moray, Stingrays, etc). It has a heavy bias towards tanks with infantry in support roles.


Yep, the current Tau list is a hover-head list...

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:49 am 
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Damn that L4 ! :angry:  Oh ... wait ... never mind ... :)  Well I guess, from the fluff and my knowlegde of military operations, Infantry supported by AFVs or Even AFVs supported by Infantry ... should be the norm, IMO.    This is a very long thread, so it is obvious to me, 1) FWs are off some how ? Too expensive for what they do ? Or what they do is off ? 2) Or the Tau have become an Armored Heavy Force, by evolution or something ?!  :alien:  Fix it !! :alien:

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Reaver
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:45 am 
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I've hung back on this, because my opinion differs pretty radically from most.
I'm of the opinion that the list needs a fundamental re-think.
I know this isn't going to get done, but like a few others, I'd like to see Battlesuit and Armour Cadres removed from Core, and just FWs left.
The background to a Hunter Cadre is that it should be around 50 individuals, mostly FWs, with a Battlesuited commander, a few Crisis suits, and a small number of Broadsides, with some armoured support. And bear in mind that all those Crisis teams and Armour crews are chosen from the ranks of the FWs - hard to do if you don't have any in your army! Basically a well chosen 2000 point 40K army is a Hunter Cadre, and an Epic formation should reflect that.

I think an Epic army made up of formations like that, with some small supporting tank squadrons and stealth teams etc would be just right.

I also think Firefight values need improving dramatically - I know the focus has always been away from Engaging with the Tau, but a Firefight of 4+ for FWs and even 3+ for Battlesuits would be fully justified by fluff and 40K gaming experience. The Tau are deadly close in, and can slaughter anything in a short ranged firefight, and in fact NEED to get close in to do serious damage in 40K. I would even reduce their CC even further if poss, like only one CC attack per 2 FW stands (like Guard autocannons) or maybe making their CC Slow Firing?

In short, Tau armies should have a solid core of FWs, should be awesome in a Firefight Engagement, but should be appalling at Close Combat.
They'd be harder to play, sure; you'd risk getting your flat, blue face pushed in if you pick the wrong Engagement - but the army would reward careful positioning and manouvering. Just like a Tau force should.

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Soren
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:56 am 
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It?s nearly impossible to loose with this awesome FF values, especially with the current retreat rule.

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Reaver
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:44 am 
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(Soren @ Jun. 29 2007,09:56)
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It?s nearly impossible to loose with this awesome FF values, especially with the current retreat rule.

Yes, if the list was left as it is and Battlesuit Cadres were all you used...
But not if FWs are the core of the force, and Battlesuits are just part of their formation - FWs don't have Jetpacks, nor do Devilfish, Kroot etc. Just one more reason to take Crisis Cadres out of the list.
I'd also call for the removal of the 30cm Pulse rifle shots. Again, these are only just better than bolters in 40K in terms of range, but with better hitting power and so should be part of an improved FF value.

FF is where the Tau infantry (Crisis teams included) should excel, not ranged firepower - leave that to the supporting tanks.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:01 am 
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FF is where the Tau infantry (Crisis teams included) should excel, not ranged firepower - leave that to the supporting tanks.
Regards,
Reaver


I'm with you there.

The lack of FF4+ on Fire Warriors is a huge divergance from the background.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:35 am 
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The lack of FF4+ is sticking with the background. Tau are poor in assaults - in 40k they shoot not assault probably. Here they do the same. If you want to make them into a FF army of doom, deploying from Orca to FF the enemy to death, go for it, but think through the implications.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:42 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 29 2007,11:35)
QUOTE
The lack of FF4+ is sticking with the background. Tau are poor in assaults - in 40k they shoot not assault probably. Here they do the same. If you want to make them into a FF army of doom, deploying from Orca to FF the enemy to death, go for it, but think through the implications.

I believe Tau are poor in close combat, not "assaults" the way it's defined in EPIC.

How do Tau win in 40k?  Massive firepower... a game of 40k is an EPIC assault action is a common reference point, so they should win that with massive firefight ability.

The thing is, Tau should be awesome at long range fire *AND* awesome at firefighting... that would certainly make them different from other armies which tend to be only strong in one aspect.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:54 am 
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I'm with Chroma here TRC.

Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be one of the best armies in a firefight situation... it's in close combat where they're supposed to be weak.

It's a feature of the Epic armylist that this has been modified to make Tau lame in all Engagements, not just close combats.




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