Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? |
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?  Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:33 pm |
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| Quote (baronpiero @ 28 May 2006 (22:08)) | CS,
The changes you lean towards are fine.
But the self-Planetfall shouldn't be limited that way. In truth, not taking the hero cruiser, which is often a good investment for 150 pts is more a gift the Tau player would make to the opposing player rather than the contrary in most cases. My opponents would certainly appreciate not to suffer the two pin-point attacks.
Personaly, I would like the self planetfall to be barely similar to regular planetfall with very few exceptions, for instance:
The Tau Manta is a true interplanetary craft in the sense that it is able to fly through space and enter atmospheric flight at will. The Manta does not require a space vessel in order to Planetfall.
In effect, the Manta takes alternatively the role of the space craft AND the planetfalling unit.
1- Deployment: the Manta is placed on the table edge and the operation turn is declared as for normal space craft. Planetfall coordinates must be written secretly as normal. The sole exception would be: Manta does not interfere with other spacecrafts arrival.
2- Planetfall: During the appropriate turn, the Tau player must activate the Manta as a space vessel having 2+ initiative and no weapons, then proceed to the planetfall deployment if passed, unloading any transported troops.
3- The Manta and any transported troops may subsequently activate as speparate ground formations in the same turn (in effect, the Manta gets to activate twice on its arrival turn). |
Personally I think this would make the Manta too good. It means that the Manta can show up anywhere on field it wants, with essentially no penalties or drawbacks, for free, and carry as many troops as you can load into it along with it and all activate independently, again without much penalty. At worst it gets pushed to Turn 2 due to the enemy having their own star-ship and a higher Strategy Rating. But if that's the case you can always choose to set it up with the rest of the army. Maybe I'm missing something here, I do like the idea of the Manta Planetfalling in terms of fluff material, but why should it get all the advantages of planetfall AND the advantages of being a DC 8 War Engine with some really nasty weaponry, with essentially no drawbacks? How many people here would take a Warlord every game if they knew they could always choose to drop it anywhere on the field they wanted to? I know I would. Even in smaller games the ability to drop a 'big can of smackdown' on the enemy anywhere you feel like is insanely powerful. Especially given the range on the Manta and it's Support Craft rules. Drop it dead center of the board and it can reach ANYTHING on any reasonable sized board basically. On a four-foot by four-foot table you can reach almost anything except the very corners of the board with the ion cannon arrays and ANYTHING with the railcannons. If you were to space-drop this thing then retain with it it could potentially alpha-strike anything it felt like for virtually no cost.
I like the idea that it's planetfall should cost it SOMETHING. Maybe not a point increase, but something. Counting as a double-move feels right. Meaning it'll hit on 3+ for the railcannons and 4+ for the ion arrays. A small price to pay for the right to drop a DC8 war-engine virtually anywhere you want to and open up on nearly any target you feel like shooting at.
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baronpiero
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:12 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm
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IlushiaPersonally I think this would make the Manta too good. It means that the Manta can show up anywhere on field it wants, with essentially no penalties or drawbacks, for free, and carry as many troops as you can load into it along with it and all activate independently, again without much penalty. |
Regular planetfall retains several penalties:
- The spacecraft must show on a specified turn which is not secret.
- The landing zone must be planned well in advance before any ground units are deployed and may not be adjusted thereafter: certainly the biggest drawback of a planetfall which goes a long way in balancing the ability. Land in the wrong place and it can be really tragic, especially as you're Tau, and more susceptable than others to the proximity of ennemy forces. Also, the Manta is your break their spirit, and a very tempting target if it comes outrageously close to the ennemy.
- The Manta and the landed units must retain to activate (well, it's less of a drawback now that several Tau elites have 1+ initiative).
It has its own advantages:
- half of your army is untouchable, and can be fully effective on turn one.
- you know the landing zone but the opponent doesn't. The Tau player has to make the opponent fall into a trap, while the opponent must guess what's going on.
IlushiaAt worst it gets pushed to Turn 2 due to the enemy having their own star-ship and a higher Strategy Rating. But if that's the case you can always choose to set it up with the rest of the army. Maybe I'm missing something here, I do like the idea of the Manta Planetfalling in terms of fluff material, but why should it get all the advantages of planetfall AND the advantages of being a DC 8 War Engine with some really nasty weaponry, with essentially no drawbacks? |
Planetfall is all about getting at the ennemy quick and just isn't always the best thing to do. Let's just examine some armies :
- IG out ranges Tau and will mainly wait for the Tau to come and shoot at them, stalling the Tau advance with their cheap infantry. But IG is slow to react. So it's certainly a good idea to outmanoeuver them using planetfall. In effect, the Manta and its loadout will perform an advanced deployment, allowing to collapse ennemy garrisons and put heavy pressure on a flank of the IG army.
- Against marines, planetfall is a bad idea for many reasons: first off, a marine player is very likely to field a strike cruiser as you state, and will often rob the 1st turn. Since the goal of planetfall is to get the Manta in mid table on the first turn, it's pretty much useless to do so. Also marines are an offensive army, so you'd better deploy normally to benefit the formidable Firefight umbrella the Manta is, especially now with 4+.
IlushiaHow many people here would take a Warlord every game if they knew they could always choose to drop it anywhere on the field they wanted to? I know I would.
I would too, for a warlord would gain even more benefit from planetfall than the Manta:
- a Warlord is slower than a Manta, more benefit
- a Warlord would want to get into CC, possibly knocking several intermingled formations at once, while a Manta would just want to get into sustain fire range.
- a warlord wouldn't be crossfired while in the heart of the ennemy, while a Manta can suffer dearly from an advanced deployment.
IlushiaI like the idea that it's planetfall should cost it SOMETHING. Maybe not a point increase, but something. Counting as a double-move feels right. Meaning it'll hit on 3+ for the railcannons and 4+ for the ion arrays. A small price to pay for the right to drop a DC8 war-engine virtually anywhere you want to and open up on nearly any target you feel like shooting at.
CS' proposed planetfall is more flexible, as you can choose the landing zone dynamically, and I agree the -1 to hit seem warranted in that case.
But regular planetfall requires a lot of planning. Everything including the landing zone is set in stone, and it would be a bit too much to further add -1 to hit. I'll take a hero cruiser any time then.
In anycase I'll be happy to playtest something
By the way, my game using the 750 pts manta when off against an IG army... 2 days now.
In a nutshell, the IG force only fielded 2 lonely shadowswords which didn't warrant the D3 on the railcannons. So in effect I fielded a better and cheaper Manta for that game. Not bad.
- the 4x seeker missiles were very appreciated to help support infantry.
- I couldn't experience the critical hit, as my opponent chose to ignore the Manta. I should have been a bit more offensive
I'm not too sure about upping the FF to 4+ for that beast... something to try-out if my opponents agree.
=> Game result: loss. Only the Manta survived a harsh fought battle that lasted four turns. The lack of alpha strike is certainly the reason as I had no flyers, or planetfall. A hero cruiser to planetfall the Manta would have been a major help. And there were the kroots: they assaulted but it din't worked well. 10 losses despite a rather well engaged assault is something I'll remind. Next time i'll try to support them with the Manta. Could be nice. ?
