Why not do that with all the races? 1 human list (tank/mech/infantry/siege), 1 marine list (air assault/horde etc etc), etc?

Currently if you only want to win you do actualy pick a style - sadly its not exactly a fluffy one (i.e. gm horde, skimmer mass etcetc). Its very hard to stop players doing that the more stuff is there, and of course you have duplication of unit purposes and one is always better than the other. These armies are nigh on guarrentied to win against x types of armies (and then sheer ower level determins chances against others) and the epic system of army list design is meant to make such forces untenable for anything other than scenarios.

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In the game I did, APU would have resulted in completely different moves: The two 4-strong Basilisk formations would have been effectively hidden from the start, in order for the Morays (or the Hammerhead Cadre) to get a LOF they would have needed to march.

Instead, the Morays advanced once and then they and the Basilisks poured fire at each other, sustaining when they could and firing on hold when that failed until the Basilisks lost. Maneuver and positioning had exactly nothing to do with the outcome, it was down to luck. The only tactical variable was hitting another target than the Moray/Basilisks when the initiative had been lost and said target hadn´t activated, which resulted in the Leman Russ´ being morayed once and the Scorpfish and nearby FWs barraged also once.

I´m quite aware of the downside, thank you. But, to reiterate: Vultures and Basilisks are ideal counters to Support Craft, armies which lack long-range AT are at their mercy.

As to the topic "coming up recently": I have argued against the Morays being flying, all-seeing Super-Shadowswords even carrying their own AA back in 2005 when Jimmy Grill was Army Champion on the old forums.

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I've played dozens of games against Jstr with the Moray and (Upgunned SG) Manta using the Support Craft rule. He finds it boring and I find it irritating.

All of the most recent arguments are about the overpowered nature of the units but the flip side (the support craft being able to be targeted with no LOS and no cover) is glossed over.

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Well this can show my point.

The Turret/drone heavy list reprsents the defensive tau cadres

A mechanised list represents the tau cadres that preformed sweeping attacks on the imperial lines

A foot list repsrents the tau caught by the marines and cadains on the ismutha peninsula break through.

So three different lists can represent the same tau forces in a single campaign, just like several marine lists can represent the same marine chapter.

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I think the Epic community is more mature than that.

Personally I want to see two lists because I think it would be healthy for Epic, not because of some esoteric dislike I have of people who think Morays are cool.

Would both (eventually) be tournament legal?
Would both be respected by all players (not shunned by 40K purists)?

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Once again I see a lot of complaints about eh Morays and it feels like the Mantas are just getting wrapped up in it all.  If Morays are (arguably) out of balance to begin with it stands to reason perhaps the problem isn't the support craft special rule but  their stats alone.

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I can only speak of the past but it worked fine. Because Epic Tau get AP GM's your entire army can be based around them (if you only had AT GM's you would still need stuff like infantry with AP shots). Every formation of tanks and stuff has a markerlight and for forward lighting you use TigerShark dropped drones and pathfinders - the pathfinders often doing a co-ord fire to double at the target whilst the rest open up.

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General Plumer, 191x

TRC - Fair points in regard to multiple armies from the same race.

E&C - Would you accept a "Tau Armoured Cadres Army List" that has Morays, Scorpionfish and Markerlight Turrets etc?

Oh and I certainly don't use Morays just because I think they're "cool"...
We've increased the pts cost for them recently (to 350 and we may adjust it further) as there is no such thing as an overpowered unit, just an underpriced one.

I think the Epic community is more mature than that

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Yes I would ; That would be awesome.

It could even get some extra units, like a new configuration of Manta.

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Yes I would ; That would be awesome.

It could even get some extra units, like a new configuration of Manta

You could make that list dependant on such things - they would be the core essentially. Hard to have a problem with something when it is actually the point.

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General Plumer, 191x

UPDATE: With no additional lists displayed, I will be starting work on the next version and changing these boards to read only on Monday. If you are working on a list or suggestion, either send it to me or put it in the Wiki area and I will add a link post here.

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Sorry E&C but I don't get you. You moan about these units day in day out... yet you advocate making an entirely different list with all the things you don't like. You'd probably moan about that list too....  

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