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Tau beefs, discussion

 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:52 am 
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So the general consensus seems to be:

Either a decrease in weapon power or range
Playtesting of "always popped up" to see if we should include it
Simplify deflector shield, probably to a standard 5+

Is this a fair assessment?




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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:04 am 
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Pretty much Zombo.

As a side note, personally I would prefer to see weapon power reduced rather than range. BUt that's just me....

I agree with E&C regarding the rule too.





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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:22 am 
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Well, maybe I'll be able to try Moray in the next game, any suggestions as to which of the above stats (in full)? As for bat reps I take it no one has been surprised by the recent test games I've had. Any tips for me or my opponent?

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:40 pm 
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The support craft rule has always been a touchy subject which is why I actually didn't include it in the Dark Eldar special rules.  If you note in Raiders, support craft and free planetfall are placed outside any of the army lists.  I did this in anticipation of potential changes that would probably be driven by the Tau development.

I am probably coming off as clinging to the support craft rule because I printed it and I can see how people might misunderstand me.  The support craft rule still strikes me as a bit off as well but after going 3-4 pages on Tactical Command last year (maybe two years? :oops: ) I was left with a 'good enough' feeling about the special rule.  It is simply that I have deep reservations over the always popped up idea given the lack of playtesting with it (by playetesting I mean different people playing against different armies on different terrain with different playing styles, not just the same two guys who say "Yup, always popped up worked better in that game too.").  I am cautiously open to it but would like to see overwhelming evidence that it is better.  If that can't be provided then I see no need to change something that works well enough.

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Mosc: That's why I listed it as something to be playtested rather than something to be immediately changed.

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 08 Oct. 2008, 09:43 )

Mosc: That's why I listed it as something to be playtested rather than something to be immediately changed.

No worries - we're on the same page so to speak.  

By the way, I like the suggestion to halve the armament on the Moray (and probably the Manta) as well.  I wasn't sure how well that would be taken but reduction in firepower will go a long way to making the Moray more palatable.  

Another thought would be to make the railcannons on the Moray only MW.  This would be akin to the differences between the Eldar Phantom Titan (TK weapons) compared to the Revenant Titans (MW only).

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:42 pm 
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*singing*Think the guns are too hot?
Do we halve them or not?
That's the Moray....

I'll get my coat.....

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:08 pm 
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TRC:  How about halve the weapons, keep everything else the same for this game?

So, either 1x Rail shot or 3x Ion shots.

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:43 am 
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So its 1/2 weapons, different pop up, everything else the same?

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:04 am 
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err, no, he said 1/2 weapons keep everything else the same :;):





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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:24 pm 
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Anyway I'm sick of Moray discussion, lets have something else.

Hammerheads, railguns and so on would do me!

So the humble hammerhead. Everyone knows the ion version is pointless in an army with so much other good AP stuff (or if you don't you expect to fight ferals).

I propose 3 things to make them balance and incidentally make the rest of the army a bit better.

1) Make them WYSIWYG
The discerning shopper amongst you will have noticed that the two models have different weapon load outs. So the Rail head gets burst cannon and the Ion SMS.

2) Change the main gun stats.
The Ion is 60cm, AT4+/AP4+. The Rail becomes 75cm AT4+/AP5+. Now I know people have pointed out the comparison with the battlecannon. I'd like to point out a bit of real world stuff. At the end of WWII the Soviets had a 122mm gun on the JS-x (1-3) tank (which remained in service for 20 years and gave the allies something to panic over in 1945!). This had poorer armour penetration and range than an AT 100mm tungsten core arrowhead shot. But it was a 55lb shell. So it didn't matter because anything hit was pretty much out of it. If they weren't dead the exterior was wrecked and the crew stunned. A bit like the comparison between a railgun and a battlecannon I feel :)

3) Lower the cost. With the above changes I would expect a formation of 6 to roll in at 300-325. The Swordfish upgrade may need to increase in cost as now its a fair bit better, maybe 25 points each?

4) Make Hammerheads come in multiples of three. So 6 basic formation, Hammerhead upgrade +3 tanks, hell the swordfish could be 1-3 tanks +25 each.

Only problem is I would still take Rails with the swordfish upgrade but at least its closer now!

And of course the railgun changes cascade into other problematic units hopefully making them easier to balance, cost and use.

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 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:10 pm 
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How'd I miss Hena's comment?  Just change and test one thing at a time, so *either* test the halved weapons load, *or* skimmer-always-popped-up.  Not both.  I think the weapons load will fix the issue without messing with Support Craft.  Without lots of testing to back it up, APU may be a simpler fix.  I don't know, that's why we test these things!

If APU isn't enough (and I don't think it will be), run another game with the same forces and test just the reduced weapons load.  Then we can think about combining the two changes, if the weapons load change isn't enough by itself, either.

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