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Cadres
nealhunt
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:13 pm 
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I take Tacs all the time.  My first ~1000 points in most SM lists is a Tac Company w/ SC.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:28 pm 
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I take tacs to every game with my marines. :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:21 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 30 2007,23:12)
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Fire Warriors, on the other hand, should be present as the core of *every* Tau army, and yet the vast majority use the holy trinity of Crisis/Stealth/Hammerheads as their core instead.

*Ahem* Crisis/Hammerheads/Pathfinders (plus whatever aircraft is currently the most powerful :) ).

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:06 pm 
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Just done some rough sums from the contingent TO&E in IA3.  The breakdown is approximately as follows:

60 Crisis suits (including commanders) [~5 EA cadres]
12 Broadsides [~2 EA support groups]
268 Fire Warriors [~4 EA cadres]
76 Pathfinders [~2 EA support groups] (+ 8 Tetras and 5 Piranhas)
15 Devilfish [mounts ~2/3 FW cadres depending on PF allocation]
18 Hammerheads [~3 AMHC]
100 Drones + 30 Heavy Drones [Mix and match as you see fit]

However, before we get too rigid in our force choices there is also the following:

"The Tau Fire Warrior Command, under Shas'o R'myr, consisted of of approximately 80 to 100 Hunter Cadres. These Hunter Cadres were organised into larger battles for specific roles. Whilst flexible and fluid, ... Battles can be formed and dissolved quickly..."

Which suggests to me that contingents with few Fire Warriors aren't unreasonable or even unlikely (depending on the tactical situation).  However, Fire Warriors are clearly numerous so, ideally, they should be a viable option.

Orde

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:20 am 
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I think the issue stems more from FW unit abilities than it does cost of minis etc. - even though that may have some truth to it as well. I also think that given the Tau's perceived weakness in assault that maybe people take HH's to gain a little survivability on the Skimmer ability in engagements

That said, FW's were very plain before the update to 2x 30cm AP5+. They were just a backseat to Pathfinders because they didn't seem to fill any particular role. Now at least their up-gunning makes them more attractive and I myself will be using them in the future.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:32 am 
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I don't know, they have lost markerlights so for me have dropped back behind pathfinders again (better synergy between them and the armour).

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:17 am 
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Maybe we can return the ML's to them?? Just an idea. What was the rationale for taking them out? Giving PF's a specific task?
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asaura
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:12 am 
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What TRC said. The reason I don't use FWs is that they are not good at any job. If I need to hold ground, humans do it better for less. If I need to do anything else, PFs win with MLs and CF and Scout.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:51 am 
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Yes - perhaps the problem is the fire warriors are excellent mech troops - but the tanks are better.

A fully kitted out firewarrior mech formation is the bees knees, better than guard - but guard wise I have a reason to take mech. Its for the SC and after that they are a cheaper unit than tanks.

Tau wise the combo of tanks and support is a lot better. The tanks are cheap (not to say too cheap, rather the formation cost is relatively low for a core activation, its not like shelling out for Leman Russ), the support (pathfinders etc) complements it well.

I have to say i sorta concur with a general feeling around some playtesters that the Tau are slightly too good. Whether this is due to underpointing or the excellent synergy you can create or simply how easy everything int he army is to use (it definatively has the shortest learning curve) it is hard to say. Fire warriors fit this. They are better than point for point equivalents in similar armies but the various cheap specialists make them redundant. As has been said, Pathfinders for markerlights (scouts and sniper), humans for garrissons. Multi-purpose AT skimmers instead of mechanised. And so on.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:52 am 
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Plus the tanks look really good :) Infantry? Ha I have siegers for that!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:13 pm 
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As I've said elsewhere, I'd give Fire Warriors FF4+, and re-point as appropriate.

At least then Fire Warriors will have a definite and unique role within the army.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:50 pm 
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In my view, FW were the "jack of all trades, master of none."  Pathfinders/Stealths are better for marking, Guevesa better for holding ground, Crisis better at shooting, etc..  FW, however, could do a decent job at pretty much everything you might need in the army.  They were the flexible but second-string formation you keep in reserve to take up the slack when the enemy blasts one of your focused formations to bits.

Without the MLs I'm not sure how they fit into the list.  I know it was a well-supported change and most people think it fits better with the background, but to my thinking it really tanked them as the "line" troops in any force with a substantial amount of GMs.  You can't afford to spend points on FW if reduced MLs risks your GM fire dropping perilously in effectiveness.

It seems the only role left to them is a big formation with Ethereal for a fearless BTS that's virtually impossible to wipe out, which just smacks of metagaming to me.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:20 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 31 2007,12:13)
QUOTE
As I've said elsewhere, I'd give Fire Warriors FF4+, and re-point as appropriate.

At least then Fire Warriors will have a definite and unique role within the army.

You'd also completely void the idea that Tau are supposed to be weak in assault.  As with the Vespids' good FF, you'd have the normal fire/support/assault combo that every other army has.  More, you wouldn't even really need the combo.  You could just go hardcore Tau assault.  For ~500 points you'd have an air assault force that would rival Space Marines.

Thawk, Assault, Devs - 625 points before characters, 6 1/3 hits in an assault on average, 10 units

Orca, FW, Crisis, Ethereal - 500 points, 5 normal and 2/3 MW hits on average, 12 units

Fearless v TSKNF.  FW will degrade faster due to slightly lower armor and the fact that the Assault Marines are the first, "cheap" casualties for the SMs.  FW are cheaper.

All you need is a Stealth formation or two and a couple missile formations to deal with AA and you could easily fit 4 Tau air assaults into a 2700-3000 point army, one of which is Fearless/SC.

Admittedly, I've been told more than once that I don't "get it" with respect to Tau army feel and style, but that seems wrong to me.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:30 pm 
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You'd also completely void the idea that Tau are supposed to be weak in assault.


I've modified my FF4+ proposal to 'give them FF4+ if the assaulted formation is markerlit', which reverts them to the combined-arms approach.


Ie: double a pathfinder formation up forwards, then engage with Fire Warriors.

Instead of providing Supporting Fire being the most important asset of the Pathfinders, their most important contribution to the Engagement is in markerlighting the engaged formation.



It'd provide a new dynamic to the army, and would bring it more into line with the background & 40k rules.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:41 pm 
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That wouldn't change the Tau Air Assault Army ™ very much.  Just trade a couple of the Crisis suits for Pathfinders and most of the formations have MLs to mark for the next player in the Orca Conga Line of Doom.

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