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Getting things moving again
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:54 pm 
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I'm not saying that they're better (Statwise they mostly suck, though a tweak or two might make some of them attractive options.

I'm saying that the fluff that's been written for the Epic armylist is incorrect. The fluff states that the variant Hammerhead turrets are older, obsolete versions... this is incorrect. In the real background, the variant turrets are the newest, most experimental variants, contemporary to the anti-titan flyer (AX-01 IIRC?).

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Xisor
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:08 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 25 2006,20:54)
QUOTE
the newest, most experimental variants, contemporary to the anti-titan flyer (AX-01 IIRC?).

Experiment results can also say "No, this is a really bad idea, let's drop it now and never look back" (cf: Tau & Medusa V)

I'm happy to support the idea that the HH Variants are simply experiments to see if upscaling certain technologies is advisable. Since it's not, they get kept experimental.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:01 pm 
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Again, that's not my point.

My point is that the fluff text in the Epic Tau list is chronologically wrong.

The fluff text says they are the oldest Hammerhead types, when in fact they are the newest.

This is GW fluff 'cannon'.

That's all. :)

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:11 pm 
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Well, this discussion could go on... Truth is, it could possibly happen either way. Therefore, I will change the flavour text to 'specialist versions' or 'experimental versions' without giving a time frame.

Thanks.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:46 pm 
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Cyber, this isn't just idle assertions on my part... it's GW-official fluff that the Plasma & Fusion cannons are the most recent developments:

From Imperial Armour 3, page 158:
Other weapons commonly mounted in the Hammerhead's turret are the ion cannon, burst cannons, missile pods and, first encountered during the Taros Campaign - Plasma cannons and fusion cannons, which are the most recent developments


The Taros Campaign was also the first time the AX-01, Piranha & Tetra were seen, so they're all essentially contemporary.


Now I get that you don't want the variant weapons in the army list and that's your call to make as the Army Champion, but the background is official and shouldn't be changed by the Epic armylist.

It is incidentally pretty strongly implied in IA:3 that the variant weapons are going to become more common in Tau armies after Taros than they were before, so writing them off as failures just because they don't fit a certain vision of how the Tau should operate (Or their inability to fit within the strict points cost system of the Tau armylist) is also the wrong thing to do. IMHO leave it open ended to the tune of "Certain variant Hammerhead turrets have also been seen, and though still rare it is possible that the Tau could begin to field these units in greater numbers in the future".




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Nerroth
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:49 pm 
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Sorry E&C, but the idea of a rail-armed Tigershark variant was in the Tau list before it was in the Taros Campaign - and if the crap they put in about the Tau fleet is anything to go by, the book is not exactly perfect (think of it as an Ordo Xenos record of the event, which may or may not conflict with alternate sources...)

And the idea of the alternate HH turrets being prior to the IC option makes sense when you consider that accroding to the SG PDF for the CPF, the Demiurg sold ion cannon tech to the Tau. Early HHs could well have been armed with these other configurations, but to an Imperial force on Taros they could have been considered as 'new'!

And the Studio wasn't afraid to alter the Skyray and ignore the XV8x variants in the Codex: Tau Empire...

Maybe I'm a little bitter after the royal messup over IA3 and the resin Tau ships, but there is room for alternate extrapolations of fluff in the setting - and we have been at this for a while even before IA3 came out, you know! Plus, the book basically took one of tthe early versions of our Epic lists and re-worked some units (and ignored others) - and it hasn't negatively impacted our development of the list, thankfully!

Don't get me wrong, IA3 is a great book, all considered - but it isn't perfect, and it's only one fluff source among many, and that list includes the Epic list as it stands.


Gary

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:30 am 
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That's all well and good that they're newly seen, but the 40k stats suck.  We may be able to make the alternate turrets useful with different stats/rules, but that goes against one of the design principles of E:A.

Change the fluff descriptions, fine.  Label them as Experimental/Developmental (or simply new to the Imperium).  Or whatever.  But there's no point in even having them available in the list right now.  Half the range of an Ion Cannon and the same stats?  No thanks.  Not interested in the multi-BC version either (although realistically it would make a good AA vehicle, too bad it's not an option!).  The MW might be worth having, but the range is so horrible!

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:46 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Nov. 27 2006,00:30)
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But there's no point in even having them available in the list right now.

Forgeworld make the models, nuff said.  We have items in the list that don't have a model so why exclude models we do have?

I'm not suggesting that they should be in the main section where the focus is, understandably and rightly, on the use of the list for tournaments.  Don't forget that some of us will never play a tornament game and bulid are armies round a theme (such as linking the models) so it's nice to have the stats for these variants, even if they aren't worth thier points in a tournament - which is why we have a collector's section and why they should be in there and why we shouldn't be spending much time on them.

As it's not worth spending time fixing the stats, CS's 'specialist' suggestion sounds the best wording to avoid any historical fluff implications and it covers the fact that people in this discussion seem to rarely use them (even if that's only because they think the stats suck).  

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:00 pm 
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(Nerroth @ Nov. 26 2006,21:49)
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Sorry E&C, but the idea of a rail-armed Tigershark variant was in the Tau list before it was in the Taros Campaign - and if the crap they put in about the Tau fleet is anything to go by, the book is not exactly perfect (think of it as an Ordo Xenos record of the event, which may or may not conflict with alternate sources...)

But the Taros Campaign is not written from any kind of subjective perspective, it is fully objective on almost every single page except those that print 'excepts' from officer's logs etc.

Taros is the first recorded use of the Rail-Shark, and it is stated as being a very new ship developed in direct response to previous dealings with Imperial Titans.

This is cannon-fluff, whether that variant was in any armylist before the release of the Taros book doesn't really matter... it doesn't affect the background one jot.


And the idea of the alternate HH turrets being prior to the IC option makes sense when you consider that accroding to the SG PDF for the CPF, the Demiurg sold ion cannon tech to the Tau. Early HHs could well have been armed with these other configurations, but to an Imperial force on Taros they could have been considered as 'new'!


They are described as new objectively, not subjectively.

And the Studio wasn't afraid to alter the Skyray and ignore the XV8x variants in the Codex: Tau Empire...

The alterations to the Skyray were simply to remove the AA option IIRC, and of course the XV8x variants were ignored in Codex: Tau Empire... they're ForgeWorld models. The Tau Manta isn't in Codex: Tau Empire either y'know.

Maybe I'm a little bitter after the royal messup over IA3 and the resin Tau ships, but there is room for alternate extrapolations of fluff in the setting

There is no room for the Epic armylist to write fluff that directly contradicts published background information.

None at all.

- and we have been at this for a while even before IA3 came out, you know! ......  Don't get me wrong, IA3 is a great book, all considered - but it isn't perfect, and it's only one fluff source among many, and that list includes the Epic list as it stands.


Fanfic fluff does not trump GW-published fluff, in my humble opinion.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:03 pm 
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(colonel_sponsz @ Nov. 27 2006,20:46)
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Don't forget that some of us will never play a tornament game....

Most people who play Epic will never play in a tournament game, never mind the people on this forum (Who have a vastly higher tournament attendance than most).

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:11 am 
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Look, I'm all for having the fluff between the games align, but the new turrets can safely linger in the Collector's Model section, not in the 'balanced for tournament use' section.  Besides, the ML-Heads are my preferred Stingray proxy (unless/until I can get FW to go for my version, which I'd have to build first in 40k scale).

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:53 pm 
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Just to clarify here... the 'variant turrets' will remain in the 'not for tournaments' section. I have no intention of moving them up.

The fluff is OK to discuss, but the end of the day (as with so much in the EA Tau list) is that we have a single FW book to base stuff on. For the most, this is fine, but I am sure that GW wouldnt think twice about re-writing the background if it suited them. So, we should use it as a guide, but little more.

The term 'specialist' gives no idea of time frame, or widespread use. It keeps these variants non-standard without excluding them at a later date if we change our mind.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:45 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 27 2006,21:00)
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There is no room for the Epic armylist to write fluff that directly contradicts published background information.

None at all.

There damn well is, if you'll pardon the forwardness.

If SG, and the studio itself, feel that the SG Epic Lists version of events is better than the IA one, they'll go with that. They've done it with the list itself already, haven't they?

The fluff is no different. They really dragged their heels like ... I don't know what, an ass maybe?...on the CPF work we did, but that is alot more sweeping than the FW Stuff. (not to mention alot better...)

But I'm distracted. If the IA Book says they're new and experimental...we can deal with it.

They say the Missile Pod/BC and Ion Cannon are all commonly  mounted (but first encountered) during Taros. The Plasma and Fusion, however are the most recent. MP/BC can all be the old mounts, perhaps even pre-Tau'n campaign (pre-Tau'n was when the Tau got Ion Cannons from the Demiurg, they used Ion Cannons in the Campaign itself, so they must've got it from the Demiurg before the campaign if they did get it from the Demiurg), and so are only 'roughly' kept in line as something more akin to 'auxilliary' tanks rather than the mainline tanks.

The railgun (and Ion Cannon, being second most common) can, obviously, remain the 'main' weapon for the heaviest tank, but like Exterminators, Conquerors etc for the Imperium, the smaller ones have their uses but just are not as ubiquoutous and effective as the main core-version.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:50 pm 
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Not that this isn't diverging from the topic of the thread, but I have a rant...

FW blatantly ripped off all the conceptual work that Jervis, Jimmygrill, and the playtesters had put into the list without giving credit.  They tacked on a bunch of half-baked fluff to make it fit their desire for a "campaign" book without the slightest regard for the desires of the people whose work they ripped, let alone actual consultation.  They have consistently lied to us about development and production, effectively sabotaging all possibility of coordinating Epic development with them.

Screw them.  In fact, I'm just about to the point of actively discouraging people from buying their stuff.

Fluff is malleable.  While we can't blatantly contradict canon (not "cannon") sources we can spin it within reason.  Choosing to emphasize a different aspect or interpretting something official in a different way is fine as long as we can get SG to sign off on it.  If FW doesn't like it, or it contradicts the flavor of anything they've done, I consider that a nice little bonus.


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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting things moving again
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:59 pm 
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Ripped off Jervis' work?

He gave it to them (Because they're part of the same company and all)... if anyone's to be blamed for what ForgeWorld did with the material at hand, I'd say it's Jervis for washing his hands of the whole deal (SG, Epic, everything).

Heck ForgeWorld probably didn't even know that the work wasn't 100% in-house.


Neal, you've mentioned several times that ForgeWorld lie about production schedules, when did this happen and what models were involved? It's obviously quite a while back now, before I've been keeping tabs on their output anyway (Pre IA-3 too).

All of my dealings with their chaps speaking about future products have been very honest (Lots of maybes and possiblies, some of which firm up into definites further down the line, and in general definites always come through).


PS: Who said "canon"?


There damn well is, if you'll pardon the forwardness.

If SG, and the studio itself, feel that the SG Epic Lists version of events is better than the IA one, they'll go with that. They've done it with the list itself already, haven't they?


What (official) list directly contradicts the background in such a manner? I know there are some quibbles as to missile ranges and whether Ion Cannons should keep their AA... but direct (and knowing) contradiction with W:40k?

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