Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Devilfish with SMS

 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Except for the historical refight scenarios, there is no background that discusses the use (or lack of use) of the SMS upgrade (little to no background information to base a decision on).  In my and other's experience, the SMS upgrade is used heavily (WPPI40k).  The only other thing that is available to Devilfish is Gun Drones.  Gun Drones are also available to Hammerheads and Skyrays, in place of either the SMS or two Burst Cannons (this is a change from the old codex, when you could have both Gun Drones and either two Burst Cannons or one SMS on a Hammerhead) (availability of other options).

To be honest, IA3's historical refights make no use of the SMS upgrade, even though they use some of the other (rather less useful) variant Hammerhead turrets.  I do not know why the SMSfish does not make an appearance in the scenarios in the first printed mention of it's availability.  It certainly does not follow GW's usual modus operandi, of showing the new toys in action.

Given all this, we really can't say one way or the other how heavily the SMS is used.  I can say it's heavily used on Hammerheads and Skyrays, but of the 7 different Devilfish mentioned in the historical scenarios, none of them have SMS.  There's no flufftext one way or the other, and there are so few devilfish mentioned in the Scenarios that there's no statistical significance to the numbers.  All told, there are 16 scenarios in the book.  2 are Epic scenarios, 3 are Battlefleet Gothic, and 1 is a Kill Team scenario.  Of the 10 remaining scenarios, 3 do not feature any Tau opposition (the OPFOR is either Kroot Mercenaries, Planetary Defense Forces, or Mine Gangs).  Of the seven remaining scenarios, 3 scenarios do not use any Devilfish.  So, in 4 scenarios, there are 7 devilfish mentioned, not one of which carries an SMS.  As I said, there's not enough information to make a meaningful extrapolation.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
On the other hand, it's quite possible that ForgeWorld made their Devilfish as armed with Gun Drones because that's the role they envision it being most used in...


Anyways, I'm not so keen on requiring players to undertake conversions on a stock model (The devilfish) just to reach WYSIWYG.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:40 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Actually, the reason FW made the Devilfish with Gun Drones is that SMS wasn't an option in the Codex at the time they were made!  

If the SMS had been an option at that time, I bet FW would have made two different versions, one with gun drones, one with SMS.

Must be time to pester FW again, see if they'll make an Epic AX10, a Stingray, and a Devilfish w/SMS. Oh, and Remote Sentry Turrets.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:26 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
It was an option in the Codex when they made it, because they had the codex available to them early as a resource while writing it. :)

That's why lots of new options for the Tau appeared first in IA:3, then a few months later were revealed as fully official in the Codex.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
I thought that Epic Tau were released more than a year before IA3.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
That's true, but it wouldn't stop them throwing SMS into the historical refight scenarios.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:44 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
Swarm Tyrant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Singapore
Hi, and sorry for the delay in this. This is a subject that I have been a little uncomfortable with for a while, for reasons that I will go into in a minute.

In general, I am against the inclusion of the SMS with the Devilfish, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, this is an upgrade in the 40K. Sure, it may well be a common one which many player take (although I have yet to be convinced that it is common enough to be classified as a ?default? upgrade in any way), but it is an upgrade none the less. As a general rule, upgrades are not represented in Epic stats. Before someone jumps out and lists a counter, I admit that it does happen. However, the rule is that the stats reflect the basic options.

Secondly, we must keep in mind that the Devilfish is a transport vehicle. We should not kit it out like an MBT. Even the Eldar Falcon has been stepping into the background over subsequent editions of Epic ? starting as the main transport to be replaced by the Wave Serpent. All transport vehicles are limited in offence capabilities.

Also, the role of the Devilfish should be transport and support. I believe that the current stats reflect this role well without overstating it.

I don?t really see what the need is to represent the SMS system on the transport. Are people having trouble using the Devilfish? I have never thought that it really needed anything else ? particularly since this would necessitate a point increase, which would make me less likely to take the transport. I would rather save points that could be put into other vehicles or units.


In the various points which have been raised here, I have not heard an argument that gives a reason for it being available in Epic. What would this add, and what would this achieve for the Devilfish that would allow it to carry out its primary role (that of a transport) better? I am not convinced that it is required. Sorry.

To confirm, I do support that change to the SMS systems as a global: 30cm ? AP5+ - Ignore cover

OK, the thing that I wanted to come back to. One thing that stands out about the EA Tau list for me is the flexibility of the tools available. I agree that the Tau in Epic should be ?shooty?, but I also feel that they should be specific in terms of role. Many of the Tau units for me lack a certain definition. Now, this is not a huge problem, and in some way marks the Tau list apart from other lists, and makes it different to use than other forces, and I certainly don?t intend to make sweeping changes to bring it all closer in line with my ?vision?, but it does make me hesitant to keep upgrading units and specifically vehicles in ways which broaden their role rather than refining and defining it better.

Thanks for listening.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
CS,

I will support your decision, if this is the way you want to go. I do not agree with it for all the reasons listed previously.

The bottom line is that it is up to the AC to make the call because there are arguments for and against.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
I'm going to have to disagree with this decision too, CS.

You are the AC, it's your call, but to completely ignore the option is a bad idea, IMO.  Would you be willing to consider an upgrade to allow SMSfish for, say +10 points each instead of making the SMSfish the default?

I can see times in Epic that I would want both versions, usually involving SMSfish in Pathfinder teams the same way that LC Razorbacks give Marine Scouts some AT punch.  

I don't see improving the AP capability of the DFish as blurring it's purpose, the propose of the DFish has always been to get the FW from point A to point B, and support them with AP fire once they're in position.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I said quite a while back in this thread, SMS as an upgrade option would be fine with me, but as a basic option I'm against it (As it would require buyers to convert their stock models to reach WYSIWYG status).

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Devilfish with SMS
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ok hell has frozen over - I agree with Hena on something!! :D Yes I'm not that keen to change the Devilfish. I'd rather we adjusted the Fire Warriors and be done. I can see the interest in changing the 'fish but don't see the need for change.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net