Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Skyray and cost

 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:45 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

(Hena @ Jul. 31 2006,08:26)
QUOTE

Move reduction alone wouldn't be worth much if any (35 -> 30 on a unit which doesn't wont to be in assaults).

Why bother to propose them then?

The 5+ armour is same as falcon, fire storm. fire prism and night spinner. So it's not that bad.
This is true but it's not what the vehicle is supposed to be.

The point number 3 is the main change. As that effects directly to the AA capability of skyray.

Exactly why my response was "Pfft!"
Hey! Let's make the Tau AA range 20cm and see how that fits with the army shall we... ?
Sorry Hena, I just don't buy the range reduction. It's not anywhere near what the Tau are known for - their shooting/technology....

TSKNF alone worth the everything that skyray has?
Sorry Hena, I never said that. I said it's a points cost you don't seem to be taking into account. Add that to the fact it has a 60cm range - of course it's not 75cm - but it's nothing to be sneezed at!
4+ AT (3+ on Sustain, mind you) which is 1 pip better than the Skyray's AT at its best chance with a markerlit target!

And I don't see any change (even proposed) in Hunter which would make it equal to skyray.
Umm, are they proposing a points change? It's one of the things that needs a change. Why should Skyray go UP in points to suit people's theories? As I mentioned earlier, why not bring the cost of the Hunter DOWN?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:57 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
I'd suggest moving it's missile-range to 60cm. That's still as long as a Hunter or Ionhead. And at that point three formations with them can set up a picket line across the center-board which has AA capable of reaching nearly every point on the board (Twice to some points!) and that's a very scary thing to most enemies. It certainly has the actual firepower to be useful, so I don't see a 60cm range being a bad thing.

For saving throw: The Skyray is as well armored as the Hammerhead on all sides, so should naturally have the same armor saves in Epic. At least one would expect such (though there are neumorous places that better AV in 40K is worse armor-saves in Epic).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
Dobbsy,

On the bright side, Skyray has been in test for quite some time. It appears to be pretty balanced in THIS list's performance.

CS seems to be happy with game results on the Skyray thus far.

From my experience with the piece, its no where close to a mandatory piece, and it appears to be costed accurately enough.

Space Marine comps hold little weight considering the list has problems and is not as air oriented. So I wouldn't worry there much.

Eldar lists have some of the nastiest AA in the game, on their titans, the prism has a 75cm weapon, and considering all of the experimental flier rules as well as the Eldar experimental rules - I think we are best to stay focused on OUR list and OUR rules right now.

Finally, the SkyRay is CS's version. Its working quite nicely in comp with the IA:3 rendition of it and the latest 40K Tau Emp's codex that aligns with IA:3 making it both a main battle tank as well as one of the most devistating Anti-air assets the imperium has ever encountered.

Dobbs, I wouldn't worry, we appear to be right where we should be here.

'wave'

_________________
Rob


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

For 500 points you can be fielding 8 60cm AA 6+ waepons which also do AP3+/AT4+ as well. That's just nasty! Now that's 2x as much as a formation of Fire Prisms which have a similar weapon... But 2 formations of fireprisms gets you 6x AA 5+ 75cm range.


So, just running the numbers here, if you did field 8 IC-HH as a flak unit, how many hits (on average) would you get? Well unless I'm missing something, it ought to be about 1.2. So you spent 500 pts to get 1.2 AA hits. I would offer that is not why people buy the IC-HH, they get it for the +3 AP hits. The reason the IC was given an AA attack is because that is the AA weapon used on Tau aircraft.

RE: Eldar AA vehicles. I think you are not including the value that comes with the special abilities the Eldar AA weapons have. Lance and Pulse are what allow them to sweep the skies and remove the need to field Eldar aircraft. Also, the +6AA on the Fire prism is a "proposal" and that isn't what they currently field.

The Hunter is the AA poster child in EA and needs to be reviewed. It's not that bad however as it's dual nature (nice AT value) nicely complements the tactical squads who need the extra AT attacks.

So my opinion is that the Skyray is very close to where it needs to be if not there right now.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
I just posted a comparison between the Hydra and the Skyray over in the 4.4.1 changes thread.


(Me @ earlier)
QUOTE
So, let's compare the Skyray to the Hydra.  
- Except for the AAA battery (something that would seem to be outside Tau thinking for support units), deployment is essentially identical.  
- While the true range of a Skyray is more than 50% greater, that's due to the 15cm range increments that E:A uses, so the effective increase is right about 50%.  (in 40k, 45cm=48", 75cm=72" -> ~50% increase in range)
- They have equal AA to-hit numbers (both 2x AA5+).
- Given the apparent acceptance of the SMS change, a Hydra has 2x AP4+/AT5+ and 1x AP5+, while a Skyray has 2x AT6+ Guided (effectively 2x AT5+), 1x AP5+ Ignore Cover, and Markerlights.  I would say that the Hydra has better Secondary Weapons.
- They are both the same speed, but a Skyray is a Skimmer.  Mobility advantage:  Skyray.  (Although every Tau vehicle is a skimmer, that mobility still needs to be considered in points)

Based on this review, I would say that the Skyray is fairly pointed as 75 points, and that the Hunter is the oddity.  While the Skyray has better AA/AT range, the Hydra has better weapons overall.  A Skyray is slightly more mobile.  I believe that the skimmer mobility is pretty close to equalling the better overall weapons of the Hydra.

Even with the 30cm AP4+ Ignore Cover, a Hydra has a better ground-attack ability (ignoring range) than a Skyray.  With the SMS tweak, a Hydra is even better.

Should I also compare the Skyray to a Firestorm (I see the Fireprism as an Ionhead.  The AA is a nice addition to make it slightly more attractive)?

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Oops, missed the speed difference.  :blush:

Hydra: 45cm 2x AP4+/AT5+/AA5+, and 30cm AP5+ (heavy bolter)
Skyray:  75cm 2xAT5+ (effectively), and 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover (mod SMS)

Where's the third shot coming from?  They both have 3 potential shots at a mixed formation within 30cm, but a Hydra can effectively shoot up mixed formations 45cm away.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:43 am 
Swarm Tyrant
Swarm Tyrant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9348
Location: Singapore
Hi guys. A few things...

I am not sure where you are all looking, but the SkyRay has a move of 30cm on my version and the one on the SG site...?

Whether the Hunter is altered or not (and I favour a point drop to 50), I do feel that it is over-priced currently. That said, the Tau do still have worryingly capable AA ability.

But, I do feel that the SkyRay is performing as required right now. I would consider dropping the range to 60cm, but I think that the other stats are pretty accurate. I would also not like to see the SkyRay increase to 100 points.

The issue of the IonHead is seperate. Deep down in my heart, I would like to drop the AA ability of this unit. I understand that this was attributed to make it a direct choice to the RailHead, and I would like to keep that equivalence. However, having these as AA erodes a decision for the Tau player that is present in all other lists - where do I put my dedicated AA support?

I will open a seperate thread for this...

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:38 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
CS,

On the Skyray, Lion presented a fairly good breakdown as to why it is accurately costed at 75 (in his words, slightly more than 75).  While I have since been convinced that my 100 point proposal is off the mark, 75 points seems like a bargain still.

My two pesos.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
Moscovian,

Glad to see you backed off of the 100 point suggestion.

I think each list has its "values" in it. I'm not sure that I agree that our SkyRay is really the "value" by comparison to the Eldar Scorpion, or like units... but if it does, I'm not necessarily opposed to that idea.

Each list has to have some good value pieces. Ideally, you'd want all pieces to have a 'good value'. The space marine list has its own problems and is considered to be a fairly overpriced list for yield on several units. As a result, it serves as a bad comp in my opinion. Comp'ing to Eldar and IG will at least be comping other shooty lists - as long as you are mindful that Tau fight in h-t-h worse than both.

CS,

I'm in agreement with you, Honda, and Lion on this one.

I've saved my Ion-head comments for that thread.

Glad we have a level headed champion that can consider the multitude of variables at play here.

Cheers,





_________________
Rob


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Skyray and cost
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

(Tactica @ Aug. 04 2006,16:41)
QUOTE
Glad we have a level headed champion that can consider the multitude of variables at play here.

Hear bloody hear! So true.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net