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Tau Air |
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| Ginger |
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm Posts: 5483 Location: London, UK |
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| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
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| dptdexys |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm Posts: 1974 Location: South Yorkshire |
The pattern I see is that all the newer lists are creeping up in power slightly and that is why their is to be a rules review . if the Eldar were not a touch out of balance their would'nt need to be much of a rules review. I can see the same happening again in a couple of years after Tau /Necron /Tyranid and the other experimental lists come into play were their is going to be another situation of the older lists (IG/SM/Orks/Eldar/Ferals Siegemasters etc.) needing a bump up to match the newer lists so why not just keep things in check now (things like stopping ever increasing air power)and save another situation similar to the where Eldar one is at the moment. |
| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
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| HecklerMD |
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201 |
As Honda has shown, other armies can have loads of cheap air activations, even at 900 points, and are additionally not burdened with 9 Orcas just to do so. Moving on... THe problem with this approach comes in when we try and create new aircraft, without an idea of what is a reasonable level of down-statting to fit with those that came before, and it's something I think all the AC's (including myself) who are designing lists including new aircraft could use some guidance on. |
The two stated reasons for the air downgrade (Mostly IN, really) are: The air situation on Armageddon (Campaign Specific) and the emphasis on ground combat.
The first applies in no way to the Tau list, different campaign. I feel for our Steel Legion friends operating in and around the vicinity of the 3rd Sphere Expansion Zone without adequate air cover, I really do, but...
We are not here to correct the failings of other lists.
The second is greatly, though not totally, addressed in the rock hard 1/3 air rule, which in most armies happens to be the same 1/3 the Titans come out of. For some, those are hard limits and hard choices.
| dptdexys |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm Posts: 1974 Location: South Yorkshire |
With the Kroot hopefully being able to use the orca and then maybe the inclusion of vespids in some form the problem of not having assault troops will be gone and maybe a drop in the overall firepower could happen. I know the Kroot and Vespids won't be great assault troops but it would give the option to engage especially in FF with decent support from Tau formations. To say that Tau have good aircraft or shooting is not to say that all other races need to be redesigned - and I think its a far stretch to even propose that. |
The problem is though that is partially happening with the rules review and experimental rules that are trying to up the original lists or tone down the newer ones with things like the new skimmer rules .
I think what most people are saying here is that 1) the main aircraft rules need to have some work (sniping and counter measures come to mind in general) and 2) the three original lists are probably due for a bit of tweaking as they are slowly becoming behind the times
1)The aircraft rules work fine if you want E:A to be a ground game its when players want to have an abundance of air assets that it becomes a problem .I do think that stopping air sniping would be good though.
2)the original lists wouldn't need tweaking if the newer lists were/are balanced to them again this shows their is a power creep coming into the game and would solve the need for uppowering of older lists if the newer ones were a little less powerful.
| dptdexys |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm Posts: 1974 Location: South Yorkshire |
In the Tournaments ang games I've seen and played in ,when orks or Imperials max out on air formations they cannot win many games (around 1 in 10 in the games I've been involved in).In one tournament an ork player had 1000 points of F/Bombers but only won 1 out of 5 games but when Tau max out on Air assaets they are winning around 8 or 9 times out of 10 and this should not be possible if the stats are in line with others. I'm not saying the aircraft should be toned down but they should be point costed to what they can do or have a 1/4 limit on air assets similar to siegemasters to help reign in their abilities to win games . |
| dptdexys |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm Posts: 1974 Location: South Yorkshire |
The fighters were not down graded to show the situation on Armageddon but to keep them from being too good for the game and keeping the emphasis as you stated on the ground game . The fighters were limited to 2 in a formation to show the situation on Armageddon were as the orks have access to bigger formations to show their command of the skies. As for the second part of your quote I think it answers most of the arguments about tau air assets, keep the emphasis on ground combat. The first applies in no way to the Tau list, different campaign. ?I feel for our Steel Legion friends operating in and around the vicinity of the 3rd Sphere Expansion Zone without adequate air cover, I really do, but... |
I think the first part does apply to tau and all lists in development as they are going to be facing lists from the Armageddon rule book .As for the SL operating without adequate air cover if the newer lists don't go over the top with air power it won't be a problem .
| dysartes |
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:16 pm Posts: 908 |
Yup - Eldar starting the process of being toned down because they're too good currently and Chaos Space Marines beng a problem in general - but that's for another topic. Needless to say, I expect them to get toned down in the future, but that's still a problem now. I still say the AC's need some guidance on aircraft design, so as to stop this problem. Oh, and as faras I was aware, the lists you are meant to use as a benchmark when designing these lists are the ones in the core rulebook - no others. The two stated reasons for the air downgrade (Mostly IN, really) are: The air situation on Armageddon (Campaign Specific) and the emphasis on ground combat. |
As dptdxys pointed out, the first is what limits the SL air formation size, but the second is something which affects the unit stats of all air in the core rulebook. I have a suspicion that this part of the guidelines re air was partially forgotten for the Eldar, but they are meant to be the best air force in the game, certainly superior to other lists in print so far.
Part of the problem with post-Swordwind lists, to my mind (And this includes AMTL) is a lack of guidance from above, and a definate lack of feedback from Fanatic when you submit a list.