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Tau Leaders
Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:14 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	Quote (CyberShadow @ 01 Dec. 2005 (22:07)) I must admit that I am not really keen on the idea of vehicle leaders (aside from the obvious!). The battlesuits are badges of honour, and I dont think that the leaders would put it aside to lead from a vehicle. I dont necessarily object to being able to add Crisis suits to a Hammerhead Cadre and then upgrading one Crisis unit to the leader. This was 'overlooked' in version 4.3.1 but will be added in v4.3.2 as an option, and should go most of the way to allowing the tank formations to remove blast markers easier. I understand, but I think LITS meant in no way a Shas?el or Shas?o in a Vehicle. Just a ranking Officer that is able to perform this task. For me there must be this kind of Officer , even in a Tau Army. As I said, I?m not fully keen on the CF approach but having a Leader in a Command Tank should be OK, IMHO. _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	For the upgrade of Crisis in a HH Cadre, I?m not so enthusiastic, in my opinion it would take even more the aspects of an IG Mech. Company, besides slowing the Formation down. Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:53 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	Exactly.  I meant a Swordfish Tank Commander (ranked as a Shas'el, or maybe a 'vre), not stuffing a Crisis suit into any AV hull.   I meant the Command Swordfish (call it a Swordfish Shas'vre, I guess) would have the statline of a Swordfish with Leader and Co-fire.  This would then be an upgrade to a HH unit. The Dragonfish (sorry, DFish means Devilfish to me) would really need an up at this point, though, and I don't know what to give it. _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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RedDevil	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:24 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 pm Posts: 112	I proposed the the Swordfish should get "Leader" and "Reinforced Armour" in exchange for it's Seeker shot a couple nights ago in Everything Markerlight's.  So I would support Lion's suggestion as well.  No Co-Ordinated fire though, and maybe limit one per formation.
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:56 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	FYI - vehicle tank commanders for tau has been discussed at length and on numerous occassions here and elsewhere. In the end, they do exist - but not to the extent that they have an impact on the tanks performance. Tau do have tank commanders and the tau codex even talks about them identifiying their tanks like IG with the tau name next to the top hatch... but that's the extent of it. Tau are not known for veteren crew, famous tank commanders, etc... Shas'la and Shas'ui are about the extent of tank commanders thus far. Rank comes from those progressing through battlesuit tech from all we know so far. Battlesuits don't ride in hammerhead or devilfish bodies. Only until Taros, did we finally start to hear of commanders on board superheavies - and that makes sense as battlesuits can fit there. Also, the famous, renowned, and epic game impacting tank commander is something akin to that of the IG. The sacred vanquisher upgrade is basically what that represents. The masses have determined in the past that we are not going to go down the tank commander path with Tau unless the new champion wishes it so for some reason... and can convince all of us that its a good idea... ? LOL, seriously. Last vehicle commanders were discussed. We were going to feel out the dragonfish concept a little in the vault and see how that was received. We tabled the idea of a crisis cammander upgrade for the Manta - but noted that it may be worth considering. Beyond that, I'd encourage all to steer clear of the tau tank commander concept unless there was a pressing need for it in the list. I think CS's version of combined arms are worth considering if you really see the need to give your devilfish FW or your HH contingent formation a commander... I'm of the mind to leave the commanders in the in the infantry formations. This is not only fluffy for the Tau, but will only make the infantry that more valuable to the 'combined arms' concept of the tau list... the vehicle tech is good, the infantry are wise and rely on that tech, but they bring value to the tech by being on the field in numerous ways... ultimately, they work good together. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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RedDevil	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:50 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 pm Posts: 112	You might have some good points there Tactica.  I really have to think about this more, before I commit to a side.  Some people might have noticed that I tend to "plow" one idea at a time.
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:15 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	RedDevil, Well met. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:28 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	@Tactica, while I can understand your Points and personally I don?t need them so far, it was just an Idea, I thought it wouldn?t impact that much. And as we play at are greater Level than 40k there might be the occasional Tank Commander which can pull the right strings at the right time to increase effectiveness of his troops. And it would have been restricted to HH (Swordfish) only. But if it?s a NO NO then we cancel this discussion. Cheers! Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	The Tank Commander isn't a real high priority on my list ATM, since I started this thread to propose changing the Shas'o and Shas'el Crisis commanders to a stand, instead of a character upgrade to a stand.   A third of the example Hunter Cadres only have the Shas'el + 2 Shas'vre bodyguards.  If that's actually typical of a 'grand tactical' organization, we've been building the Epic list very differently.   That's what I really want. _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:56 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Steele, I think the discussion is a good one. The decision on Tau vehicle commanders is not mine to make. If you guys want to discuss it, please, by all means do not let my comments intrude. I just wanted to throw bring up some history that may be worth considering. However, I think if we are discussing items that would just be neat tweaks to the list, I think there are other very tau-ish elements that are missing from our list that could be focused on, and may even work towards the same goal. Example: the very centric tau bonded ability. Completely missing in our E:A list right now. Its an important one in both game play and fluff for us to overlook. In effect on game play, it would identical to the Eldar spirit stones ability. However, I see it only affecting our tau infantry like it does in 40K. So Drones and Alien Aux would not claim this benefit. Err... all battlesuits would also benefit from it though even though they may/might/some are presently LV in E:A [sorry CS - not trying to bring up an old topic] Anyway, this is perhaps something worth discussing... it isn't tank commanders, but works very much towards giving our list something its missing both in fluff, adds to the infantry (and LV), and works to address a big problem of the list being highly suseptable to suppression and blast marker effects without a way to remove them like other lists have (orc mob rule, IG commissars, eldar stones) we would just have "Tau Bonding" Not trying to hijack this thread with a new proposal either, just commenting on an area where there may be a need for a similiar vein of discussion. Cheers, Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:25 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	Fair point.  I hadn't noticed the lack of bonding, because it's not worth the points to bond a Crisis team to me (I run pairs of suits, not 3's).  Stealth and/or Fire Warriors I haven't bonded either, since it's been more useful to have another FW than be able to rally under 50%.  I'm convinced that the Tau need something to help remove blast markers, it just seems we can't agree on what. Would adding both Shas'o/'el stands and the Spirit Stone (I mean Tau Bonding ) rule together be too much? Not to mention this still requires adding a Crisis stand to a vehicle detachment , making that detachment more vulnerable to fire to be able to pull off blast markers... _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:15 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Lion, The vehicles, and tau army in general, have a difficiency problem removing blast markers - I agree. I think most agree on that actually. Your question - would 'bonding' be too powerful when combined with a commander/shas'el? A: No more powerful than an Eldar unit with a leader in it. In otherwords, there's a pecident for this type of removal - however, our entire list wouldn't have the bonding ability, just the infantry. So in the Tau world, it would be sub-precident as only our infantry would have the effect. If you didn't take combined formations of infantry and vehicles, you wouldn't get the BM management on the vehicle formaiton. Which is good thing probably... go all armored mech and no infantry, not penalized, but not as good as it could be. As many think/feel/know/believe - whatever... 1) the infantry in the tau army are substandard today to the rest of the list 2) the tau list has a blast marker management problem 3) the use of both infantry and tanks in combined arms is a to be encouraged 4) bonding is a significant established tau-ism missing from the E:A tau today The bonding (spirit stone) rule for tau infantry and battlesuits would / should work to rectify each of these. I haven't even considered the multitude of combinations that could come from a Tau infantry Bonding rule. However, from initial perspective, I don't see it being over the top. I really see it possibly being a good fit to address many of the most recent problems/issues/feelings discussed in various threads as of late. The shas'el/shas'o combination doesn't really worry me in itself - on paper anyway (haven't tested this concept at all BTW), primarily because the crisis are expensive and you further have to pay for a commander upgrade. The only way you are getting both of these mixed with any vehicle formation - or any other formation - is by paying for at least two upgrades. So vehicle + crisis + commander is going to be paid for in points and loss of activations. Stand alone crisis would get a bit better BM management - good I say! Crisis with cammander would be paying for the commander - so see above, Good! So for now, I don't see an issue. Needs playtested if CS is game. Alas, its just one of the many combinations to consider with any proposed 'bonding' type rule. If folks want to see something like this, its easy enough to reference Eldar Sprit stones, create the tau Bonding Rule, and apply it to the infantry and battlesuit units in E:A Tau WIP 4.2.8 for playtest. Your guys call - please give some feedback on this one. Question: See above, do you want to see bonding (Spirit Stones) for infantry and battlesuits in the Tau list? 1) Yes? 2) No? 3) Other? Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Icon-Of-Sin	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:38 am Posts: 66 Location: Italy.	YES. It's an interesting and fluffy way of solving some problems. And also a right power-up to our beloved Fire Warriors! Kisses, Icon. _________________ Eldar, Eldar ?ber Alles...
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Chroma	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:52 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Quote (Tactica @ 02 Dec. 2005 (21:15)) 1) Yes? 2) No? 3) Other? Yes, I think it's a good idea.  It's quite Tau and helps with a real problem with the list. _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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clausewitz	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:02 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland	No. Firstly becuase the main formations in question (FW + Crisis Cadre) can take a Shas'el if you want to help with BM removal. Secondly, because I think it would be better not to adopt another races special rule (by another name).  Especially one that is (in some quarters) a contentious one like Spirit Stones. Perhaps we could consider making the comander upgrades not count towards the 3 maximum formation upgrades.
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