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Skyray - love it / hate it?
Tactica
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:05 am 
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Cw,

Many feel that the space marine list is flawed. Whether you believe that or not, its a factor worth considering due to the sheer volume of players that feel that way. Battlestats also seem to indicate that this list has problems.

Still though, your point is worth considering.

At 75cm
- Skyray: 2x AT6+ or 1x AA6+
- SM Hunter: --

At 60cm
- Skyray: 2x AT6+ or 1x AA6+
- SM Hunter: 1x AT4+ or AA4+

AT4 and AA4+ on the hunter at 60cm and sustained can take it to AT3+ - that's as good as our railcannon! Our sustained AT shot is 2x 5+... if we factor in spending even more points, then we can get to 4+ if we have markers - but our cheapest formation to do that with is 175 points more... so that's really not much of a factor when you are comparing unit to unit.

In order for our markerlight to come into effect, we have to be within 30cm - which is a deadly range for a unit - or army that can't fight h-t-h. However, we do have a potential to use this - even if not in the typical tactical situation - a rarity is still an use, I'll give you that. The only other way to get our AA shot is to get another formation with a marker light to be in range of the enemy - and again, we are adding points into the equation.

So point for point, the hunter is more effective Aircraft as it is a 4+ AA and the Skyray is a 6+ AA. With more points factored into the equation, we have the potential to get to a 5+ AA, and can even be 15cm further away, but the hunter is still a better shot in the AA arena.

The hunter can be a 3+ against AT on sustained fire. The skyray can be 2x AT5+ at 75cm on sustained. With additional points factored into the equation - or a miracle scenerio where we somehow ended up in front of the enemy at <30cm range and we then got to go first - we can get to 2x AT4+. So we could get slightly better than the Hunter's sustained, but we either have to be at half of the hunter's max range to do this - or we have to have further points factored into the equation for us to be equal or 15cm greater than the hunter's distance. So point for point, the hunter actually wins in the AT comparison too.

ATSKNF vs. Skimmer? Hard to tell who has the better ability there. Both are really good abilities.

Now, if you go back to my original point about the marines being overpriced for their model count, and you agree with the above, then yes, the Skyray is over priced.

At minimum, point for point it's not good at what its supposed to be great at - which is anti-tank and anti-aircraft.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:43 pm 
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I am aware of the questions hanging over the SM list.  But its not considered totally rubbish.  From what I've heard it needs a slight boost in assaults (particularly due the extra BMs left on a rallied SM formation due to TSKNF) and a lack of TK weapons that makes tough WE difficult to handle.

If the Hunter isn't good enough then its a very slight short-coming.

I have to say I don't agree with your comparisons (yes, your figures are correct but I don't believe they show the whole picture).  Firstly, it seems to be assumed that MLs will cost extra points, but MLs don't exist in a vacumm, those points "spent" on MLs are not wasted, they are buying others units that can add all kinds of things to the army, not just MLs.

Secondly, the advantage of having several shots over one is much greater than you have outlined.  Are 2x 6+ shots the same as 1x 5+ shot?  Answer no, because when you get a +1 for ML or sustained fire you get two bonuses with the two shots, and just the one with the one shot.  Not to mention the fact that one shot can only ever kill one unit, but two shots can, of course, kill two units.
Add to that the difference in armour and the Skyray also having an AP shot (and a decent one at that), I don't see how the Hunter can be argued to be superior to the Skyray.  If anything the Skyray is already better than the Hunter.

Now I am not saying the Skyray is too good, as you rightly say perhaps the Hunter isn't quite up to scratch, but we are now talking about improving the Skyray.  My concern is that we then make an over-powered unit, or one that will cost too much.

(PS I know I have been something of the "lone voice of discontent" recently, but please allow me to reassure everyone that I don't have an axe to grind with the Tau, I worry that an over-powered/unbalanced Tau army list will just provoke an Eldar-like cry of disapproval when it reaches the masses.)
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Tactica
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:34 pm 
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Cw,

All points and comments are well met. I was just playing devil's advocate to your post. Just trying to make sure we cover all the bases.

My points about 'factoring in additional points into the equation' means that a player might not want to bring marker lights in his Tau army - so in order to make the Skyray work, its undeniable that 'some' commitment to this additional points expenditure must be made. It doesn't mean the full 175 point tetra or pathfinder formation is factored, but some portion of that should be considered.

Cw, your most important point to me is what you said about the cries of foul - akin to what happened / still happens with the Eldar. I don't want that either. I seek a flexabile list that's enjoyable to play and balanced within the other completed armies (not really factoring SM as heavily as IG, eldar, and Orcs)... and also against Black Legion - even though they are not quite complete yet.

In the end, the Skyray question all boils down to this for me:

Fact: The skyray isn't really a choice piece in the Tau army - nor should it be necessarily. However, when used, it's commonly used as a proxy model for other models in the list. It doesn't live up to its franchise legacy, and when it is fielded as a Skyray, it seems to have an ablative purpose or be used in an out of the ordinary aggression style tactic to get a ML in range, or its taken from a habit / asthetic type of reason (i.e. AA belons in every formation mentality) - but in general, the piece isn't making it into very many lists...

1) So, is all that a good thing?

2) If its not a good thing, should its effectivenss/value increase *OR* is it worth considering a minor points reduction and leaving the rules as is, *OR* Something else?

2) If the Tau list need a better skyray - how much better should it be for the 75 points spent today?

3) If the Skyray does not warrant improving in effectiveness, will a lower cost increase its value to the player community if left as is within the rules?

4) If a lower cost will make it more valuable, is a lower cost justified?

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:42 am 
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Can I suggest perhaps:

5) The Skyray tries to do a bit of everything, and as a result isn't really good at any one of them. It has AA, but not particularly powerfull AA (I still think its really useful to have 75cm AA*).  It has a couple of AT shots, but again not very good ones and it has a fairly decent AP weapon.  Also its armoured like a tank, but doesn't have a tank main gun.

Suggestion - change the Seeker Missile to a Hunter Missile and drop the SMS.  Retains the basic AT ability but focuses the weapons better against aircraft.  How's that?

(* I have taken 2 Skyrays in all my recent Tau games, they add a few shots to my HH/Stingray formations and cover the table with a basic AA umbrella.  If I want to have the abillity to shoot down a significant number of enemy aircraft I'll get Barracudas.  But the Skyrays are excellent at just making sure the BMs are added to the fliers)
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Soulless1
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:44 pm 
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Hi, i'm new here on this site but i've been following the discussion for a while.

I do agree that the skyray is somewhat underpowered for 75 points, especially given its reliance on markerlight range to do decent damage. Personally I believe the best way to fix this is simply to change the hunter missiles to be 'multiple' or 'twin-linked' (both of which are a fair description for the skyray) and give that system +1 to hit. It would be fair to remove the standard seeker missiles if this is done.
This would mean that the skyray would effectively be range 75 AA5+, or AA4+ requiring a markerlight within 30cm of the target. I think this is fair for 75pts, especially when compared to the space marine hunter, which is (AFAIK) the same points cost for 60cm AA4+ and obviously has no markerlight requirement.




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Steele
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:33 pm 
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Quote (Soulless1 @ 17 Nov. 2005 (13:44))
Hi, i'm new here on this site but i've been following the discussion for a while.

I do agree that the skyray is somewhat underpowered for 75 points, especially given its reliance on markerlight range to do decent damage. Personally I believe the best way to fix this is simply to change the hunter missiles to be 'multiple' or 'twin-linked' (both of which are a fair description for the skyray) and give that system +1 to hit. It would be fair to remove the standard seeker missiles if this is done.
This would mean that the skyray would effectively be range 75 AA5+, or AA4+ requiring a markerlight within 30cm of the target. I think this is fair for 75pts, especially when compared to the space marine hunter, which is (AFAIK) the same points cost for 60cm AA4+ and obviously has no markerlight requirement.

Welcome Aboard!

Joining the fray,heh?

Fair, proposal. We?ll see where this ends.

Steele

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:52 pm 
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I also agree that the Skyray is slightly undergunned to make it a popular choice, particularly when compared to the HH(IC).

It costs an additional 12+ points, and while it has a 15cm longer reach (which is of limited value as far as I am concerned as this level), its main armament is clearly inferior to the Ion Cannon. I would say that it compares to the Fire Prism (more of an 'all rounder' but not so good at actual AA).

The other issue against it, aside from the cost is that it is an upgrade rather than a core choice (not that I would want to change this).

One thing that I have wondered about is dropping the secondard armament a little, and making the 'missile that sounds better than Hunter' a 2xAA6+. This would make it the same chance of hitting as a 5+, but with the possibility to do twice the damage (1 in 36 chance) as well as potential twice the chance of a critical against aircraft as well. I would like to scale it down a little to reduce the cost if possible as well, but for this to work it would need to cut back on some armaments noticably.

As far as I see it, the Skyray falls down the gap between being a nice 'do anything' unit, and a dedicated flak tank.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:18 pm 
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If it's really supposed to be a dedicated or mostly- flak tank, why not give it a second AA missile?  It's underpointed, so upgunning it shouldn't be a problem.  The turret has 2 wings, so firing one missile from each side sort of makes sense.

Just an idea.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:26 pm 
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That was my logic behind the 2xAA6+ as well.

Comments in support/against?

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Steele
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:40 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 17 Nov. 2005 (18:26))
That was my logic behind the 2xAA6+ as well.

Comments in support/against?

Ok, I?m in. So we take only the 2x AA shots. No other Weaponry?

Steele

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:42 pm 
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A few points.  IRL (yeah, I know, bad place to start) most AA weapons use fragmentation warheads.  There are (IIRC) 3 RL AA missiles that actually directly hit their target, one Brit Manportable, and a couple vehicle-mounted systems.  

The Tau way of war involves precision application of fire, though, so it's possible that there shouldn't be any AP capabilities from those missiles (there isn't any real AP for a seeker missile).  

I propose 2x AA5+/(AT5+?), Smart Missiles, and Seeker Missiles.  

Names...
Seekers are AT.
Stingray is AP.
Tracer is MW/TK.
currently, Hunter is AA, but that needs to change to ... Javelin (yeah, I know it's a RL AT missile, but...)?

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:07 pm 
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Neal: are you sure its under pointed?  Earlier in the thread tactica and I were discussing this and he did not convince me that the Skyray was under-pointed (with the SM Hunter as a comparison).  In my games the Skyray has performed reasonably well, I didn't feel short-changed by it.

However, like many I believe it lacks focus, tries to do a bit of everything and fails to excel in any one role.  So I suggested dropping the SMS (AP weapons) and changing the Seeker missile to another Hunter (or insert whatever new name is chosen for it) missile.  Giving it the same 2 GM AT shots, but increasing its AA ability, but not AP ability.  Which is very similar to some of the other suggestions.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:18 pm 
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Cw:  I think we said the same thing different ways.

CS:  Pretty much all the suggestions are along the same lines and I think any of them are workable, but 2xAA6 is not an upgrade versus 1xAA5.  There are more potential hits but the average is the same, which means there is a greater chance of all misses.  If you intend it to be an upgrade, you have to add to the total average hits, not reshuffle the existing "pips."

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Tactica
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:38 am 
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CS,

would it be to much to ask for a formal write up proposal on this one so we could see the proposed weapon loadout?

Hard to comment with the confusion about what is being proposed.

Cheers,

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Skyray - love it / hate it?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:58 am 
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Quote (Lion in the Stars @ 17 Nov. 2005 (17:42))
Hunter is AA, but that needs to change to ... Javelin (yeah, I know it's a RL AT missile, but...)?

I came really close to calling the missile a Harpoon!  :D

Yes, I will put up these suggestions as soon as I can for comparrison and discussion. Thanks.

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