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General musings on the Tau list.

 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:00 am 
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NH,

True - easy to explain from pseudo-tech... hmm...

Asaura,

Maybe I'm confuzzled. I thought NH was talking about alternate play modes of the Support Craft - the Moray/Manta. I thought the point was to get rid of Support Craft in general and make it more of a minimal ability. Thus my comments about the guns and aircraft...

So then NH commented on what about planetfall without needing a ship - I thought this was just a divergent musing and offered my comments there - again from the current support craft perspective.

The Orca is not currently a support craft, its just a flier planetfaller WE.

If I understand you correctly, the being discussed mode for the Orca, (Flier  then support craft post land/planetfall) - The orca could fly in or planetfall down to 'enable' support craft mode if we wanted. However, it would only drop troops and never pick them up then. Is that what you are saying?  :(8:

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:03 am 
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Tactica,

Well, I'm quite confused, now  :D My post about the Orca is a reply to RedDevil, who specifically referred to the Orca. I tried to understand what he meant.


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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:17 pm 
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The Orca is an armed Transport, IMO ... my concept is similar to assura's. I also plan on dropping Sentry Drones from it ...    So again, my take is PF and skimmer for both Manta and Orca.  The Support Craft rating is not needed ... IMO  :cool:

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:29 pm 
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I would worry that the Manta as a skimmer might be too good.  Can you imagine a Warlord titan able to popup over terrain and shoot, then hide again ???


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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:42 pm 
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@Asaura,

:D ditto!

This is why its better to have a single thread for a single idea IMHO and partially why I didn't reply to Red Devil initially. That, and I was confused by the motive of his suggestions - i.e. what problem they were working to address.

@all,

At this point, probably helpful to seperate support craft questions / suggestions in that thread and orca questions / suggestions in that thread.

Just my opinion though.

Cheers all,

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:53 pm 
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I need to stop making these posts at 3am....

All I was proposing was the the Orca act like a skimmer when landed (I never said anything about support craft).  Presently, when it lands, it can't move around the board at all.  My proposal would be to change nothing about the Orca, except allow it to move as a skimmer (ie 25cm) once it is landed.

The above example of how the Orca is used as a bus would then be modified as such:

Turn 1)Orca lands and disembarks troops
Turn 1)Orca skims over to another set of troops and picks them up
Turn 1)Orca takes-off
Turn 2)Orca lands again to debark troops.

It accomplishes that same things, but is much more versatile, and accomplishes it in one less turns.

I was just wondering how open to abuse this could potentially be.  By all intents of design and fluff, the Orca would be able to behave like a skimmer when its four jets are thrusting down.


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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:01 pm 
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On my second note; I am still not convinced that there is any good reason to take the Ion phalanx on the Moray.  You get 2X3AP/AV shots.  So you get 6 shots, but have to make them either all AP or AV, or half AV and half AP.  They are also shorter range, hit the same (3+) and worst of all still allow the units their normal save, and even an RA save if they get it! :(

With the Rail-cannon, you get 2-6 TK hits!  These are at longer range, don't allow saves, ignore cover and can be allocated to infantry and vehicles mixed units with out wasting any shots!  Also these are actually useful if you do decide to shoot at a WE rather than normal units.  Personally I would take the Rail-cannon always, even if I was facing a traditional infrantry heavy army.


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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:07 pm 
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Quote (RedDevil @ 20 Nov. 2005 (12:01))
On my second note; I am still not convinced that there is any good reason to take the Ion phalanx on the Moray.  You get 2X3AP/AV shots.  So you get 6 shots, but have to make them either all AP or AV, or half AV and half AP.  They are also shorter range, hit the same (3+) and worst of all still allow the units their normal save, and even an RA save if they get it! :(

With the Rail-cannon, you get 2-6 TK hits!  These are at longer range, don't allow saves, ignore cover and can be allocated to infantry and vehicles mixed units with out wasting any shots!  Also these are actually useful if you do decide to shoot at a WE rather than normal units.  Personally I would take the Rail-cannon always, even if I was facing a traditional infrantry heavy army.

What ion phalanxes DO provide is ability to kill more infantry and AP units at once. Rail cannons can kill only 2 of those per turn max, without sustain fire that's very easily just 1. Phalanx kills 3-4 save 5+ or 6+ units.

Different matter is then of course that worthwhile or is moray only good as warmachine hunter.

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:55 pm 
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Quote (tneva82 @ 20 Nov. 2005 (13:07))
Quote (RedDevil @ 20 Nov. 2005 (12:01))
On my second note; I am still not convinced that there is any good reason to take the Ion phalanx on the Moray. ?You get 2X3AP/AV shots. ?So you get 6 shots, but have to make them either all AP or AV, or half AV and half AP. ?They are also shorter range, hit the same (3+) and worst of all still allow the units their normal save, and even an RA save if they get it! :(

With the Rail-cannon, you get 2-6 TK hits! ?These are at longer range, don't allow saves, ignore cover and can be allocated to infantry and vehicles mixed units with out wasting any shots! ?Also these are actually useful if you do decide to shoot at a WE rather than normal units. ?Personally I would take the Rail-cannon always, even if I was facing a traditional infrantry heavy army.

What ion phalanxes DO provide is ability to kill more infantry and AP units at once. Rail cannons can kill only 2 of those per turn max, without sustain fire that's very easily just 1. Phalanx kills 3-4 save 5+ or 6+ units.

Different matter is then of course that worthwhile or is moray only good as warmachine hunter.

This implies that Tk Hits are only applied once each hit AND after Rolling the Damage applying it to only 1 Model - e.g. 1 TK(D6) hits an Infantry Formation, one Model is assigned the Hit and then Rolled for the D6 Damage, right?

Steele

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:11 pm 
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Quote (Steele @ 20 Nov. 2005 (16:55))
This implies that Tk Hits are only applied once each hit AND after Rolling the Damage applying it to only 1 Model - e.g. 1 TK(D6) hits an Infantry Formation, one Model is assigned the Hit and then Rolled for the D6 Damage, right?

Steele

Correct. Titan killer(d6) kills maximum one unit.

Sorry but those aren't THAT good :D Unless target happens to be warmachine with more than 1 DC left that dX part is useless.

Titan killer weapons would be "tad" too much of ultimate weapons if those would spread around.

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:29 pm 
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Regarding tigershark. What are people's experiments with the railcannon variant? My initial feeling is that is one nasty piece of aircraft power. Compared to squadron of barracuda's for example you get unit that has slightly better armour save, 2 DC so 1 hit doesn't reduce firepower as it would with barracuda squadron and 2x45cm MW3+ titan killer shot.

Now apart from nasty effect of flying titan killer weapons this also mount 2 shots of those and at range that can ignore some of the AA weapons others have. Compared to barracuda's for example who have to get within AA range of pretty much any ground based AA unit(IS there such a unit with shorter than 30cm range?) this is obviously an advantage.

Atleast I would be feeling tempted to run 5 of these buggers if I were to enter tournament. 10 shots which kill on 3+ anywhere on board? On warmachine flyer and as such decently resilient? I know for certain several of my own army lists would be helpless at this barrage and just be forced to hope something can survive before game ends. My marines or eldars for example would suffer horribly under such a barrage of TK nastiness.

Hopefully this is just false alarm and in practise it has been shown to be less dominating. Maybe the fact those 850 pts are in the air not contesting objectives alone help to counteract these effects but whatabout in less insane numbers? Pair of those cost 350 pts and provide 4 "you are dead on 3+" shots. Still formidable.

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:31 pm 
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Red Devil.

1 Moray - ion vs. rail
The difference is whether you want to kill 2 targets or you want to kill 6 targets.

2 Moray - ion vs. rail
The difference is whether you want to kill 4 targets or you want to kill 12 targets.

Whether you want to hunt infantry, LV, and tanks *or* you want to hunt WE - will determine your choice of moray.

I for one can attest, the ion-phalanx is a great weapon and does have a role seperate from the rail.

If your opponent brings NO WE, you will be said if you brought two rail Moray.

One rail and one ion may be worth considering in some situations. You'll have a formations which is jack of all trades, and master of none.

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:12 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 20 Nov. 2005 (17:31))
One rail and one ion may be worth considering in some situations. You'll have a formations which is jack of all trades, and master of none.

Can you do that? Seems to be more of one OR the other, not either in any combination you wish.

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:40 pm 
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I have the feeling Tactica is referring to a formation of 2 Moray there, tneva - ie, 1 Moray with RC and one with Ion Phalanx - similar to a mixed formation of Baneblades & Shadowswords.....

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 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:14 pm 
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Hmmm, I am probably reading this wrong then, but according to "Specilist Weapons - 2.2.3 Extra attacks"  it says that
"For example, a weapon that had ?extra
attacks (D3)? would attack D3 times each time it attacked.
Extra attacks can apply to shooting attacks, close combat
attacks, and firefight attacks."

This would mean you could kill 2-6 infantry models with the TK attacks from the Moray. Also because the the weapon is TK, they get no cover save, no RA save, really no save at all.  Characters, hard targets like termies all fall with ease.  Also TK hits do not care about assigning AP or AV targets.  In the case of the Ion cannons, you have to decide ahead of time what type or target each one must shoot at.

Example:  You are shooting at a unit of 1 infantry stand, and 3 transport.  With 2xIon you decide to roll one AP, and one AV.  Once your declaired AP roll you roll 3 hits!  The AP target gets assigned all three hits as there are no other Inf bases.  It fails its first save, and the other two hits are wasted.  When you roll your AV set of dice for the second Ion shots, you roll only 1 hit.  Curse the luck, if only you had rolled the 3 hits for your AV, and the 1 for AP you could have potentially wiped out the sqaud!  Aw well....

Firing the TK weapon you get 2-6 TK attacks with no saves!  You will likely kill just as many if not more infantry this way AND you can shoot WE.  Also you just roll for number of attacks, roll for hits, then apply hits from the front to the back.  No need to declair AP/AV, and no wasted shots!

I'm not convinced that on average the Ion phalanx will kill more inf and vehicle stands than the Railcannon.  Rail has longer range, no wasted shots, no saves, no cover, and can attack WE's if one appears in the enemy when you didn't expect it.  Give me Stingrays for killing inf.






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