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Tau Rules Questions
asaura	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:24 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am Posts: 481	Quote (Tactica @ 27 Oct. 2005 (05:38)) crisis in E:A 2-4 models per stand + drones Assault marines in E:A 3-5 marines per stand. This is *really* weak. Let's say what the rules and Tau list actually say: On basing Crisis and Broadsides: in terms of unit characteristics I?ve assumed that Crisis and Broadsides are mounted two-three to a base On drones: I have incorporated the defensive benefits of drones into Tau unit?s saving throws. On basing normal infantry (e.g. Assault Marines): Infantry are represented by between three and seven Epic infantry models So the real numbers are Crisis (2-3) Assault Marines (3-7) Not very close, eh?
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asaura	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:36 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am Posts: 481	Quote (Tactica @ 27 Oct. 2005 (05:38)) If broadsides are LV - explain obliterators being infantry in black legion or thousand sons terminators being infantry. You're somehow stuck on WH40K unit sizes and wound counts. They are not very good reference points. WH40K wounds are just abstractions used in that game. Epic:A depicts a different level. I think the "Gunner! Sabot! X!" -test is more useful here. The explanation you ask for is very simple: there's more of them to a base. Thus, they are not really affected by AT fire. Kill a Broadside -> large portion of Broadside stand is gone. Kill a Terminator -> the rest just keep coming.
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nealhunt	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:22 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	I agree with what Asaura said, pretty much entirely.  The stat lines are based on having fewer models than bike stands. === We could, however, change the assumptions about what a stand represents.  If it were changed to: Crisis - 2-4 models (like bikes) Broadsides - 2 models I think the current stat lines would be accurate and it would break down (imho) as crisis=infantry and Broadsides=LV. The only reason I put Broadsides as 2 per is because that seems to be needed to reflect their current stat lines.  It would be possible to reduce them to 1/stand with appropriate reduction in firepower and increase in formation size and I don't think that anyone would argue that they wouldn't be good LV candidates in that situation.  It would also give a bit of bulk to the Tau and a bit more durability to one of their AT formations. Just spitballing... _________________ Neal
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Asura, First, I think the number of models per Epic base is really irrelivent for whether or not a given unit is deemed "Infantry" in game rules. However, I will entertain your argument and respond. First, the v4.1 Tau list has contradictory verbiage. It says, 2-4 crisis, broadsides, Krootox, and Heavy Drones. Then it goes on to say that crisis and broadsides are assumed to be mounted 2-3 to a stand as a  side comment. This is from Page 3, Basing Tau units. I think 2-4 crisis and broadsides is far from weak, its quite accurate. I don't discount that you also have support in saying 2-3 based upon the assumption text. We clearly have verbiage that is in conflict. Drones - its true that JG states drones are factored into units - and like the actual crisis and broadside models - should we not include the models onto the stands since their abilities are factored into the units? On a character stand for example, do we not model the character with the unit to show that the unit has additional abilities? You call it weak - I call it modeling for accuracy. We can agree to disagree. Regardless - I think models per Epic Stand is rather irrelivent in the grand scheme of things. Models per epic stand should have no bearing as to whether a particular unit has "infantry" declartion or not. Infantry, LV, AV, WE, Aircraft are game rules that have nothing to do with model count per base IMHO. I use 40K as a reference point as Epic is a derivative of 40K. In the days of Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus, they came from the Rogue Trader franchise. Battlefleet Gothic and space hulk (and even space crusade) also use 40K as a basis of traits and features of races. It's one large universe and a franchise that is very intermingled - despite some efforts to challenge the idea - 40K is the root game. Example: Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau in epic only emerged after they were created in 40K? Yes, I use 40K as the basis for reference when determing what a units abilities are in E:A because there's a precident to do so. That is afterall where most of these units come from. In this particular case - its the only game the crisis and broadside come from. Is it an exact corallation? Absolutely not. However, we cannot disrupt precident to the point of abstract almagamation of significantly new unit type definitions with existing precidents and expect players to accept it without defining why such a change was necessary. I see no reason to disparage legacy, if it can be avoided. As of yet, I've not heard why anyone thinks crisis and broadsides need to be LV - that couldn't in turn be countered with logic or precident. To my knowledge and unless I'm mistaken, the only ones that really defend LV status on crisis and broadsides, are those that don't really play the list. The only interest I can therefore see is from an adversarily perspective. I don't discount this perspective, but avoiding change to something that's logical in game mechanics - simply because you don't want it to be harder to kill - even though the unit and list is balanced with the change - is lacking in argument IMHO. So I ask you, I challenge you - why should we take something out of 40K that is described as infantry and turn it into a vehicle in epic? Being mindful that said unit is described in the same manner as power armor for space marines and has the same durability, to the point that they actually use it as a reference. Why would we turn it into a vehicle in epic? What is the basis for this very signficant change in franchise precident? FYI - if you accept the challenge, (and I hope you do) I plan to counter with logic and precident from both 40K and E:A. This is not a threat at all and I hope you don't take it that way. I just want to be open and up front with my intentions of the challenge. I just want you to know that I'm very willing to debate this topic and have strong opinions on it. I think the discussion will be helpful for many to draw their own conclusions. Frankly, I think both units have little impact on the list overall - so the result is somewhat moot in the end. It's more a matter of principle for me than anything else. Finally, if you do not want to engage into the discussion further, I respect that, and like NH, will continue to have an appreciation for your position on the topic. FYI - I've had this conversation several times with NH involved on each occasion as the opposition. I've playtested broadsides and crisis more than a dozen times, they work great just as infantry in E:A - which is exactly what they were originally defined as in 40K. I look forward to your response, one way or the other. _________________ Rob
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asaura	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:09 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am Posts: 481	WH40K as a reference point. Both Epic and WH40K are set in the same fictional universe. Both depict combat in the universe, using their respective rules as abstractions. As Epic depicts bigger battles than WH40K, the abstractions are different. Epic is not a derivative of WH40K. Both games are depictions of the same universe. That's why we need not be overly concerned with WH40K stats. Number of models per unit I agree that the number of models per unit is generally not all that important. We fudge this stuff all the time, good precedents include bikes and SM-era Tyranid Warriors. However, the Tau army list specifically states that the unit stats are based on assumptions on the number of suits per stand. The low number of models per stand is clearly one of the reasons for making Broadsides and Crisis LVs (the other reasons being limited mobility and big size). I'll reiterate the logic here. Infantry stands are unaffected by AT weapons for a number of reasons. 1) It doesn't matter if one out of five grunts is hit by a sabot round and buys it. It just does not show up in the Epic scale of abstraction. 2) Infantry units are generally small and able to use cover very well. They can literally hit the dirt when under fire. For this reason, they don't present good targets to AT weapons, so AT weapons don't shoot at them. Now, both of the reasons don't apply to all infantry all the time. E.g. Termies don't hug the ground. If one out of three Tyranid Warriors is killed, it's a big portion of the three-model stand. However, for a unit to be considered infantry, I think at least one of the reasons should apply. In the case of Broadsides and Crisis suits, the numbers are not there for reason 1 to hold. This is specifically stated in the design notes on the Tau list. On the subject of drones, again, the list specifically mentions that the saves are inflated to account for drones. As the drones are already modelled by this mechanic, it does not make sense to model them again when considering reason 1, above. Reason 2 also does not hold for Broadside and Crisis suits. A Broadside suit sounds like a priority target for tank gunners. Crisis suits could be a borderline case, I don't feel all that strongly about them here. However, they are pretty big (bigger than any other infantry, I think), and they don't hug the ground. This makes them AT targets. Playing the list I don't know where you got the idea that LV proponents don't play the list. The only reason I care about the Tau list at all is that I've painted up a Tau army over the last year or so. I consider myself to be a Tau player, primarily.
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nealhunt

Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:04 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

As of yet, I've not heard why anyone thinks crisis and broadsides need to be LV - that couldn't in turn be countered with logic or precident. The only supposed precedent is that the Epic stats should roughly reflect the relative abilities in 40K, scaled up appropriately.  Even then, it's subject to wholescale re-write if the background dictates it. The (rough) guideline for determining unit type has been: 1) What happens when this stand gets hit by a 1-2 lascannon hits? 2) What happens when this stand gets hit by a substantial amount of small arms fire? If 1 renders the unit as a whole combat ineffective, it's an AV. If 2 renders the unit as a whole combat ineffective, it's Infantry. If both render the unit as a whole combat ineffective, it's LV. That's it.  That's the closest thing to a "logic" standard that has been used. Generally, it works out that AV10=LV, infantry=infantry, and anything else is AV.  The exceptions, however, are numerous and certainly discount any idea that a limited, Boolean, if/then logic or a hard, fast precedent could substitute for the flexible guiding design principles that have been used since the beginning. _________________ Neal

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Tactica

Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:36 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (nealhunt @ 27 Oct. 2005 (20:04)) The (rough) guideline for determining unit type has been: 1) What happens when this stand gets hit by a 1-2 lascannon hits? 2) What happens when this stand gets hit by a substantial amount of small arms fire? I think their are probably other variables too - such as would a lascannon even be fired at said formation assuming the plethora of Epic scale targets... but such things are objectionable and open to interpretation - so I'll consider your two points above only... I know what _I_ think/feel 1 stand of E:A crisis and 1 stand of E:A broadside represent in E:A... but before I go there... 1) What does 1 E:A marine stand represent? - 10 men? 2) What does 1 E:A Obliterator stand represent? - 3 men? 3) What does 1 E:A Terminator stand represent? - 10 men? 4) What does 1 E:A rough rider stand represent? 5) What does 1 E:A stand of Ogryn represent? 6) What does 1 E:A ork Nob stand represent? 7) What does 1 E:A bike stand represent? Thanks, _________________ Rob

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nealhunt	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:54 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	I think their are probably other variables too - Yep.  That's why it's a "rough" guideline and subject to mutliple exceptions. _________________ Neal

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asaura	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:12 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am Posts: 481	Quote (Tactica @ 27 Oct. 2005 (23:36)) I know what _I_ think/feel 1 stand of E:A crisis and 1 stand of E:A broadside represent in E:A... but before I go there... 1) What does 1 E:A marine stand represent? - 10 men? 2) What does 1 E:A Obliterator stand represent? - 3 men? 3) What does 1 E:A Terminator stand represent? - 10 men? Each stand represents the models on that stand roughly 1:1.
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asaura	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am Posts: 481	Quote (Tactica @ 27 Oct. 2005 (17:22)) I look forward to your response, one way or the other. Likewise.
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:39 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Asura, Sorry... side tracked. I look at Epic as a scaled warhammer 40,000 franchise of larger epic fronts of large battles while 40K is more of a skirmish. The core mentality of unit construction remain the same though. In 40K game, we have individual models making up units. In Epic, we have units that make up formations. The concept of a unit is bastically static in each game though. Examples: A rhino holds 10 men or 1 10-man unit in 40K. In Epic, the same rhino holds 2 bases made up of 5 men. A 5-Marine unit can have 1 heavy in 40K. In Epic, the same base of models receives 1 heavy. A 10-man IG unit can have 1 heavy in 40K. In Epic, IG receive 1 heavy shot for each 2 bases. A 12-man Firewarrior unit can ride in a DevFish in 40K In Epic, 2 stands can ride in a Devilfish end examples So we can 'generalize' and say that a stand of men in epic is representative of 5-6 acutal men. However, Jervis has already identified what a stand of men is for us in Epic. A 'stand' of models in epic is representative of 3-7 'infantry' models. So how do we extrapolate how many crisis or broadside models are on a stand in epic? Well, I say we have to first look at how many models are in a full unit in 40K as there is no reason to break precident and disrupt the franchise history of what a 'unit' in either game is. We can know we can have 3 crisis (or braodsides) and 6 drones in a full 40K unit. Half of that would be 1.5 crisis (or broadsides) and 3 drones. As 1.5 models is not even possible.... we round up for simplicity as there is still room on the Epic base. Therefore, 2 suits (Crisis or Braodsides) and 3 drones are reasonable for an Epic base (or if you wanted to factor in the maximum drones capable for this many suits, it would be 4 drones). Therefore, we are reasonably talking about 5-6 individual 40K models per crisis or broadside stand - 2 of which are probably suits and the 3-4 remainder of which are drones. Asura, do we agree so far? FYI: We could even take this further even and say, our unit name specifically states how many crisis are represented on a stand "Ta'ro'cha" which you will see below means a unit of three suits - those suits can further equip weapons, shield generators, and drone controllers cotrolling up to 2 drones each - and considering a stand can represent a max of 7 stnads - we could say we have all 7 spaces taken up which means 3 Suits and 4 drones. But in order to prove the point that all Tau Battlesuits in epic are nothing more than Infantry Stands, this is irrelivent. _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:53 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	For reference: =========== 1.1.1 Unit Types All units in the core rules are subdivided into two broad categories: Infantry and Armoured Vehicles. Infantry (INF): This designation includes all personnel not mounted inside a vehicle. Infantry are represented by between three and seven Epic infantry models mounted on a single base (see 1.1.2 for details). Field artillery such as ork Big Gunz also fall into this category, as do infantry that ride on bikes or horses. Armoured Vehicles (AV): As their name implies, these vehicles are covered with thick armour plate. Thei category includes tanks such as Leman Russ and Land Raiders, as well as armoured troop carriers like the Rhino. Armoured vehicles are represented by a single model. 1.1.2 Stands As previously noted, a unit can be a single vehicle model, or a stand made up of several very small models grouped together and glued to a small base. Stands usually represent things like infantry, where moving the individual models round on their own would be very fiddly with Epic scale models. All the models glued to a stand count as a single unit as far as the rules are concerned. The size of a stand and the number of mdoels glued to it are left pretty much up to the player to decide within the following limitiations: - A stand may be no ore than 40mm and no less htan 5mm across in any direction. - A stand must be at least 20mm across in one direction (i.e. a 5mm by 5mm stand is not allowed, but a 5mm by 20mm stand would be OK) - Stands representing infantry units must have at least three infantry models and may not have more than seven. Infantry mounted on bikes or hourses must have between two and four models mounted on each base. - Stands representing artillery must be between one and two artillery pieces and up to six crew models. 2.1.9 Light Vehicles Light vehicles include any unarmoured vehicles where the crew is exposed to enemy fire, such as ork buggies and Space Marine Land Speeders. the only difference between light vehicles and armoured vehicles is that light vehicles can be affected by AP fire as well  as AT fire; in effect they count as infantry targets against AP fire and armoured targets against AT fire. Light vehicles rely on speed and agility to protect them from enemy fire, and because of this their saving throw is based on these factors rather than the thickness of any armour they may carry. This side, their saving throw works in exactly the same manner as the saving throw of any other unit, and will be ignored by macro-weapons, can be used against barrages, and so on. _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:14 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	For reference: =========== Tau Battlesuit Technology (40K Codex) BATTLESUIT SYSTEMS In addition to the major features of each battlesuit type shown in the summary, all battlesuites have Recoil Absorption and Improved Sensors in common. Improved Characteristics. Note that some Tau battlesuits improve their wearer's characteristics. This includes Toughness. When determining whether a model is killed outright by a weapon, the adjusted Toughness is used. So for example, if a plasma gun (Stength 7) wounded a Tau in Crisis armour, the Tau would only take 1 wound. This is different to the way that modified Toughness normally works in Warhammer 40,000 and reflects the fact that it is impossible for an attack to hit a battlesuit wearer without the suit at least partially absorbing the mpact. Recoil Absorption. All XV battlesuits are designed to compensate for the recoil of light weapons fire, so they do not count as moving when they fire rapid fire weapons. this ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them. In theis regard, XV battlesuits are not as well stabalised as Space Marine Terminators but they do have better range of weapons fits available. Improved Sensors. Crisis, Stealth and Broadside battlesuits are equipped with a number of variable spectrum sensors and scanners. These sensors allow them to detect ambushes (Codex: Catachans p.20) or Lictors using secret deployment (Codex: tyrandis p.11). One member of a team may scan instead of shooting during the Shooting phase. _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:29 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	For reference: ========== Forge World: Imperial Armour 3: Taros Campaign (FW:IA3:TC): p. 171 CRISIS BATTLESUIT Those Fire Warriors that prove themselves in battle can earn the right to bear the title Shas'ui and _wear_ a Crisis battlesuit. These Fire Warriors are experienced and tough fighters; they have faced the deadliest of foes and triumphed. Shas'ui are the best _troops_ a Tau a tau commander has at his disposal, loyal and brave beyond question, they will often be found were the fighting is heaviest. In combat they are the cuting edge of a Hunter Cadre's attacks. In turn, the best of the Shas'ui are honoured by being elevated to a commander's personal bodyguard, bearing the title Shas'vre. Eventually a Shas'vre may rise into the higher ranks of Tau commanders, to become Shas'el and Shas'o. The _standard battlesuit worn_ by all these elite _troops_ is the XV8 Crisis battlesuit. Large, _heavily armoured_, carrying multiple wapon systems and include many advanced systems like jetpacks, recoil absorbers, sensors and targeting arrays, drone controllers and shield generators, this makes them efficient and lethal weapons of war. The snesors allow a battlesuit to detect hidden enemy units and movement, information that can be transmitted back to Tau command units. Battlesuits are protected by dense nanocrystaline allowy armour. These advanced alloys have an impact resistance structure, as well as helping to keep the suit's weight down. This reduced weight means it can operate effectively using its Tau jetpack for manoeuvrability and dropping from transport aircraft, like the Orca and Manta. the jet pack combines anti-gravitic and jet technology to make the battlsuit _extremely agile_ for its size. Each Crisis suit has three hardpoints for weapons or support systems. the variety of weapons available to the suit makes them very versatile. Operating in teams of three, called _Ta'ro'cha_ (three minds as one), they can be equippped for a variety of battlfield roles. Many Fire Warrior Septs have developed their own battlesuit tactics and preferred weapon fits. These techniques are taught in the Sept's military academies, where respected Shas'vre pass on their knowledge. Some examples of these are the Vior'la 'Death Rain', 'Sun Forge' and 'Burning Eye' configurations, or the T'au 'Fireknife' and 'Blinding Spear' patterns. On Taros, several variants of the standard XV8 battlesuit were also identified. One, the XV88 Broadside was already well known. Other seemed to be personalized suits used by Tau Hunder Cadre commanders in battle. These were coded as the XV81, the XV84 and XV89, and all incorporate non-standard systems, as well as most of the standard systems. The Tau, being a youn and dynamic race, and faced with growing threats to the borders of their empier were obviously seeking to improve the performance of their battlefield technology. As yet, only the most honoured commanders had access to the latest weaponry and technical developments. _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Rules Questions Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:42 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	For Reference: =========== FW:IA3:TC CRISIS BATTLESUIT cont'd p. 172 Length: 1.7 meters Width: 1.9 meters Height: 2.8 meters _________________ Rob
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