I don't have a strong opinion on the Moray; neither did Dobbsy who included it in Flo'Ka only after repeated requests. The only thing I am 100% certain of is that this is the unit Lincoln was talking about when he said "You can never please all of the people all of the time."

The reason it is the odd-one-out is because it is a rare unit created for Epic rather than imported from an existing GW model. This means that the weapons and stats are completely made up, and the three versions posted above are in a way equally valid; they're equally just fabricated. The one Onyx is championing has been around longer and may have been playtested more (if anyone knows where or what the results were, please let me know). As far as I know, no version of Moray has made a final approved list - again let me know if you know otherwise.

Since it's a made up unit, it's tough for it to justify its existence. It needs a specific role to fill, literally a raison d'etre, which is why I posted the stats each of the 3 versions performance against various targets.



I understand your view.
In my opinion, firstly while the 2x Macro weapon Moray does share the 2x Macro weapon with Warhounds (stating the obvious), the Moray doesn't quite fill a jack-of-all-trades warhound-equivalent; it can't fight CC, it has similar survivability but lacks the void shields that burn first to influence FF assault resolutions, it is slower, not fearless and more expensive and is essentially a stand-off long range unit.

Secondly, Tau don't need a jack of all trades Warhound equivalent any more - they can now have Riptides which are GW Canon units. It takes a couple of them to fill a similar role, but they are in the correct price range, speed, armour and firepower band and also operate on the ground at 45cm or closer to the enemy. They aren't fearless (which I view as mandatory since it's about their only weakness in 40K) but otherwise a pair of them fill the role well.

That means that this epic-fan created unit will have a harder time justifying the need for it to be added.
In my opinion, there is a genuine hole in the Tau armoury: A serious shooting army needs to be able to deal with reinforced-armour Titans, and Tau struggle to do so without becoming extremely air-heavy. That's the reason why I proposed the stat line you can see on the spreadsheet higher up the page: the "Vior'la Moray" is actually worse vs all the targets that Tau already excell against, but best against Super Heavy Tanks/Titans per point spent.

From an army design / list building point of view this makes sense to me. I can see a gap, and the Moray could a way to fill and give players a viable alternative to 375pts worth of aircraft. I don't see the same gap for a Warhound equivalent unit; maybe it used to exist, but IMO the Riptide filled it.

Your thoughts welcome.

True, Riptides have filled that gap.
In that case, I would remove Moprays from the list all together.
As there is no need for a MW skimmer, it would be best to leave it to a list without Riptides.

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I was thinking a bit on this issue after your last post Matt and I agree with Onyx on the issue.

Actually a flying shadow sword was exactly what the Moray was originally envisioned as. I don't know if you remember but the original stats for the Moray from version 2.something had 2x 90cm MW2+ TK D3 shots or 6x 60cm AP4+/AT3+. Those were the stats when I first started playing which I had nothing to do with.

The stats I suggested (which you quoted) were actually a much toned down version of the original to attempt to keep it in viable for lists as people were complaining about not being able to use their current model collection. Which I regard as a perfectly legitimate complaint.

As for it not being in line with GW's vision . GW do not envision the Tau having lumbering titan equivalents but rather a fleet of fast moving aircraft. The Manta is actually a Super Heavy bomber similar to the Chaos bomber (Havoc?) whose name eludes me. Again as has been mentioned by Matt and Onyx GW envision aircraft fulfilling the Moray's role with the Tigershark. I don't feel there is enough room for the Moray in today's environment. The scorpionfish on the other hand may well still have a role and seems to be more in line with what GW is doing. I can see them giving the Tau a super heavy Grav Tank in the future.

I am well aware that the Moray had TK attacks back in the day and played it with those stats. This ws awkward as the A-X-10 was already there. Opponents also did not appreciate the TK Moray.
I also remember the mammoth debate that resulted in the MW Moray stats which received almost universal approval (eventually).

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Did you manage to find that old debate? I'd be interested in reading it.

I have a real love/hate relationship with the AX-1-0. It is FANTASTIC... except when it's not. It is one of Epic's most extreme unit-experiences, either ending the opponent's dreams of titan-ownership in a seething cauldron of firepower, or spends the game failing activations or blasting grots out of ork mobs because there's nothing worthy of the guns. The fact that AX-1-0s can only be taken in pairs is probably what makes it really feel like you're going all-in on the opponent having a relevant target. I'd be happier paying more for a single (eg 200pts each with a 0-2 restriction rather than 375pts for 2 with a 33% of army limit). It can never claim or contest, and is so expensive I even drew up two lists where it was accidentally joint-BTS

That's the basis of the second part of my argument, "In my opinion, there is a genuine hole in the Tau armoury: A serious shooting army needs to be able to deal with reinforced-armour Titans, and Tau struggle to do so without becoming extremely air-heavy."
As a ground-based TK platform I can see the appeal of arguing in favour of its existence, coming up with an acceptable points cost, weapon load and 0-2 style unit limit that would both satisfy opponents and convince people to consider including one.

Which brings me back to "You can never please all of the people all of the time."

That's a nice idea. Might be worth testing.

I know it's got its faults, but how about testing a "Heavy Tigershark" à la hvy. Marauder, and making a single Tigershark a war engine with 2 DC?

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But air units are how GW envisions the Tau dealing with Titans and the like and as such we should not be adding a unit to the list which is contrary to that vision unless GW introduces it. If we start doing that why don't we add TK units to the Marine list or fill the gaps in every list with fan made units. We should as a community at all times endevour to ensure that Epic lists reflect GW's vision. Just because you don't want to take a "air heavy" list is not a good enough reason to add a fan made unit to the list. If you take the Necron list as an example the only reason the fan made units were IMO kinda acceptable at the time of creation was that the Necrons only had about 6 unit types at the time and a real and genuine need was filled by their creation. But now with the expansion of the Necron list I am not as in favour as them as I was and would like to see them replaced by GW cannon units. If you want to adapt the new cannon Tau units and add them to your list I would have no problems and would support it entirely (despite the fact that I think GW is simply introducing units now for introductions sake i.e. the new SM units which add very little to the list and Thunder Wolf Cavalry which IMO are the most ridiculous thing GW have ever released) but I see little need for fan made units in the epic environment today.

I think to have a fan-created unit in a list needs a very clear and very good reason. If there isn't a good reason any more, it should go.

It's not that I think GW are a stable and well-thought out source of tactical unit options for Epic armies (they are not, let's face it). But it's important to maintain a common ground for lists if you are to avoid severe fragmentation in terms of what people play. GW canon does provide a very solid common ground that ties the debate down. Just look at the variety of discussion around war engine rules, howling banshees etc. Imagine if you had no common basis for the discussion?

In my experience people have a very low acceptance of other people's "fan lists" and it's especially important since the demise of Specialist Games that the community lists aren't diluted.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again...

This is probably off topic but what does a Moray look like? I'm familliar with all other tau units.

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Yes ... what doe a Moray look like ? I like these stats - "the original stats for the Moray from version 2.something had 2x 90cm MW2+ TK D3 shots or 6x 60cm AP4+/AT3+. " And how about this DRM model ... it has 4 different weapons configurations ...

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You could use it, if the scale is about right, but would that model look better without the white.... submarines on top?

The white Top are the weapons, as I said there is 4 weapons types ... http://www.darkrealmminiatures.co.uk/do ... oW1.2i.pdf You can see the 4 weapons types in the download It DRM so it's 6mm ... and about the size of an Eldar Super Heavy Tank of the SM1/2/E40K era ... not the big E:A models ... And as I said, I'd use the stat I listed above. Not the NetEpic stats that make it more like a Scorpionfish. I'm using a MicroWorld piece for a Scorpionfish ...

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