@Onyx: 15cm AP5+ with FF6+ for Burst Cannon & Gun Drones....? The Burst Cannon alone should be 15cm AP5+ (they are shorter ranged Heavy Bolters after all).

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2 gun drones aren't going to have the same shooting power as a whole base of them.

That's why i suggested ONE base of Gun Drones per TWO Devilfishes. Thats 4 Gun Drones per unit = half a Gun Drone Swarm (which is 4-8 Gun drones).

BTW Gun Drones are armed with Twin Burst Carbines. Those are Pinning and two of them should be enpugh to cause the Devilfish to have Disrupt onh is weapon if the combined Burst Cannon & Gun Drones statline remains.

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Drones alone, would it be to much to add scout and teleport onto them as is and allow them to be added to stealths for completeness. The Scout aspect woiuld crerat opportunities for garrissoning stuff, either the formation or what they are added to - though if thats to much (crisis garrissons) maybe the upgrade should become 1-2 drones.
Certainly scout adds to their disruptive abilities and helps slightly compete with the 175 scout ml formations.

It is an old suggestion to build units of drones into formations, I think originally to address FW pack sizes, so a base of 5 FW and 1 drone and 3 dfish.

I think it would be fine to add 'and one unit of drones' to the devilfish to repesent that ability. The Orca and manta likewise could have and x (2 for Orca, 4 for Manta?) drone units as additional transport capacity. This is ultimately a minor tweak and represents a quirk of tau formations without complication.

Maybe this discussion should become Tigersharks and drones?

I would certainly go for a formation of tigersharks if they had a seeker each and the drone formation thrown in at 300. Maybe even without the seekers.

Why do you think that? Immediately after you posted that, you went on to point out how ML formations are superior, even at 25-50 points more.

I think they are probably not worth 25 points per unit. Fire Warriors are roughly 25 points each. Same armor, CC and FF. Drones have a bit over half the firepower, but it's shorter range so let's call it half. They are only a little bit faster on the basic move and jet packs only bump speed significantly if you are moving slowly. That means it's not all that great in terms of raw speed or "gaining crossfire" tactics, though it is a nice defensive ability. That's pretty good, but it doesn't make up for the loss of firepower, imho.

Overall, I'd put them in the low 20s - 22 or 23 points. It's relatively easy to round that off in a formation (maybe 8 for 175 points) but it's harder to do that for upgrades. They may remain problematic in that respect.


I like this for all the reasons Morgan quoted. The free transport would also cover some of the "discrepancy points" for Drones being a bit weaker than 25 points. In other words, the 25 point upgrade would be 22-23 points for drones + 2-3 points for the "free" transport.

I suppose it's a matter of how much everyone feels the drones/transport are already factored into other unit abilities.


I think this is a matter of proper use. It's just like a Stompa/Dread/Kan mob for the Orks and it should be handled the same way. The tough stuff goes in front. The lightly armored units don't cause more casualties that way. Even though the tough units are more valuable the average points-killed-per-shot is about the same. However, the cheap units grant additional unit count, attacks and can be used to soak suppression. If facing something with MW/TK fire, the cheap units can be moved forward as sacrificial units.

Crisis suits and drones both lose about 17 points per hit, just like Stompas/Dreads/Kanz. Suppressing a 1-shot Drone is a ton better than suppressing a 3-shot Crisis suit, just like suppressing a Kan is much better than suppressing a Stompa. Same-same. The only time drones should be a liability due to fire is against barrages or possibly snipers.

Even though drone range isn't as good at soaking, they should still be useful for padding out an expensive formation with some cheap units. I would not call it a no-brainer to include them by any stretch. I'm only saying that it should not be a no-brainer to leave them out, either.

Of course, whether that fits with Tau flavor is another matter...

I would think that it's for W40k background / army list reasons; Gun Drones may not be alive but they're not used by the Tau in a fearless or throw-away fashion. 40k Gun Drones take morale tests (on poor leadership) for loosing members of their unit just as anything else does and if they fail they retreat. The idea that they should be disposable was an inaccurate invention of some editions of the epic list, rather being reflective of the Tau use them.


You can get the odd Drone or two attached to Stealth formations but Tau don’t field larger quantities of holofield-shielded ones. They also need other Drones nearby to network their AI together to a decent level, I’m not sure Scout would be appropriate either.


The free transport idea could also be a possibility, personally I’d leave the Orca as is (it already carries more than it strictly should in Epic, though this is a common trend with transport aircraft in the game that I’m fine with) but have Devilfish be able to carry 1 unit of Gun Drones per 2 Devilfish in the formation (rounding up). The Devilfish could still have AP5+ from just the Burst Cannon.



Personally so long as the Gun Drone formation is a decent choice I have no problem with the 25pt upgrade being possibly a bit overcosted and not that often taken. Attached Gun and Shield Drones are factored into units stats for other units already and independent units of Gun Drones are catered for by the formation of them. While it's not ideal the Imperial Guard list and other lists have a number of add-on options that are subpar competitively but are there if people want to or have left over points.

Are Gun Drones actually that bad a choice now they have AP4+ disrupt anyway? They’re use is a little niche but if you fire a formation of them at a marked infantry formation they score 4 hits and put on average 5 blast markers on them (6 if you manage to get crossfire), which isn’t too shabby for a 150pt formation. True they have to get close to their enemy to do it, but if you pick on small formations or ones that already have blast markers you can be confident of a decent chance of breaking them.

I think keeping the standard formation as they are and adding a reduced cost option of 0-1 100-125pt Gun Drone formation per unit of Tigersharks (the cost of the Tigersharks keeps the average unit cost up preventing spamming problems you might otherwise get with formations so cheap) is the best option for both units. In the background they are often deployed by high-flying Tigersharks and it would be nice to encourage that and the synergy between the two in the epic list.

To follow this through, you could make the upgrade 75pts for 4 gun drone units.

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A lot of good ideas and discussion on this, I will have a think through some of the suggestions posted, probably going to go with the idea of moving the Drone formation to become an upgrade for the Tiger Sharks.

Upgrade is slightly more troublesome may go with the simple option and just try it slightly cheaper at 4 for 75pts, although not completely decided on that.

A little out of left-field, but perhaps drones could always be supressed first, regardless of their position within the formation? That fits the background idea for them of them supporting the unit while allowing the Tau to fulfil their objectives.

It would also mean that long-range fire isn't supressed until quite a few blast markers have built up.

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With a quite short range on their guns, such an ability wouldn't be all that useful.

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it would keep the firewarriors shooting longer though (might needed to be worded drones are always supressed first regardless of whether they are in range or not) I think that's what the Apologist was thinking.

A similar feel to ATSKNF

One that occured to me this morning is why not make them skimmers? Would be a first for infantry

The Kivarn is right

Essentially, the idea is to keep the long-distance guns on the Fire Warriors operational, which adds to the long-range theme of the army concept, and makes the drones work as nannies for the more important Tau.

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I think thats a bit much - having 2 drones at the back of a formation which is firing at troops 90cm away, but able to take the supressions. hell thats nifty for AA attachments to a drone enabled formation.

Would also actually encourage keeping them out of harms way more than the Tau!

With that idea the most I would try is any in range drones take supressions first. But even that I'm not sure about.

I don't like the surpression idea. At all.