That's true I suppose. A compromise then. I'd say lose carbines though, and do whatever with rail rifles and keep the price low as possible. Carbines are weapons of last resort for Pathfinders. Railrifles are their unique weapons so should get emphasis. They certainly aren't supposed to be outgunning Fire Warrior squads though, by any stretch. Their squads are smaller and their doctrine is pretty much "don't shoot at stuff, that's what the rest of the army is for."

Its a neat idea professor, however you should see how powerful they used to be, regularly had them instead of firewarriors! How would you stat them for 150 points out of interest?

To be fair, they're only outgunning Fire Warriors on a per-unit basis. Per formation they're not.
But the Sniper proposal would help that too, in reducing their rate of hits a fair bit.

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I somewhat agree. The Pulse Carbines are mainly used for their Markerlights. No Tau Squad/Vehicle has such a high density of Markerlights! Most have only one, Pathfinders have one per model in the squad (so 4-8 minus any Rail Rifles). And their Devilfishes have "teleport homers".
So Pathfinders should provide some extra above the usual Markerlight benefits?

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-- Type ------- Speed ----- Armour ---- Close Combat ----- Fire Fight
- Infantry ----- 15cm -------- 6+ ----------- 6+ -------------- 6+

-Weapon ------ Range ------ Firepower ------ Notes
Rail Rifles ------ 30cm --------- AP5+ -------- None

Notes - Markerlights, Snipers, Scouts

Tentatively, anyway.
Several things I will continue to maintain about Pathfinders:
-Their armor is not as heavy as Fire Warrior armor. Fire Warriors can lead with their shoulder guard, which is a /massive/ piece of protective kit. They also don't have the leg guards that Fire Warriors have, and a few other armor plates. They're infiltration specialists and scouts, not line troops.
-Of any unit in the Tau army, they should be the most concerned with avoiding engagements with the enemy. They don't carry the amount of ammunition that Fire Warriors do (The backpack Fire Warriors wear is actually a generator they use to charge their energy 'clips' that are used in the Pulse Rifles), they don't have the numbers, they don't have the armor and their place within the Tau army is basically completely opposed to the idea. They are scouts that pull the army forward and pick out targets for destruction.
-Pulse Carbines are /extremely/ visible and obvious weapons. With the above idea of scouts, they are pretty much the last weapon they want to be using. Rail Rifles are better - at least there isn't a glowing blue ball of plasma leading the enemy right back to you. Plus it has range, accuracy, stopping power and armor penetration. Pathfinders will not miss an opportunity to pick of leaders or support weapons, but they are opportunist hunters.

So, I lower their armor and FF value. I'm on the fence between AP5+ Sniper Rifles and AP6+. The Rail Rifle is above and beyond any sniper rifles fielded by the Imperium at large, and I will maintain that 40k's BS3 (Average shooting skill) is not representative of their abilities shown in the fluff, given their training and biological/cultural disposition to ranged combat. On the other hand, the Pathfinders aren't full squads of snipers whereas Imperial Guard snipers (for example) are.

Obviously they wouldn't be as good at sniping as Eldar Rangers, but... When we're in 40k-verse, with guys running around in suits of armor that are equivalent to their vehicles, or have biology that can withstand most of their head being blown off, or have an ability to completely ignore pain, or maybe all of the above (and more besides)... Having the biggest gun counts for a lot.

That's off the top of my head, anyway.

The armour 6+ idea is very interesting and immediately would probably solve any problems with Balance of them gaining Sniper.

Personally I like it (although I would still leave the Pulse Carbines just for consistency, as if the Carbines are given a shooting attack on the Fire Warriors doesnt make much sense for them not to be on the Pathfinders).

Problem is alot of people like consistency with 40K and the Pathfinders have 4+ armour the same as Firewarriors (even if when you look at them its probably a bit stupid for them to have the same armour value).

So

Type----------Speed------------Armour------------CC--------------FF
Infantry--------15cm--------------6+---------------6+-------------6+

Weapons
Pulse Carbines 15cm AP5+ Disrupt
Rail Rifles 30cm AP5+ Sniper

Notes: Scouts, Markerlights

Leave cost at 175pts, certainly makes them even more fragile and much less front line combat troops, but the Sniper ability is quite nasty and gives them a different role to the Firewarriors.

Well...Firewarriors are 6-12 per squad and Pathfinders 4-8. If you take full strength squads and distribute the models evenly on two bases per squad (maximum strength divided by minimum strength = number of bases) then you have 6 Firewarriors per base and 4 Pathfinders per base. No wonder then that Pathfinders have a worse armour save

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Although I also like current stats (as in armour 5+/FF5+)

but with
Rail Rifles 30cm AP5+/AT6+ Disrupt

Makes them less good at straight killing than Firewarriors (as realisticly both will have marked targets - Pathfinders inately and Firewarriors via attached skyray or via other friendlies). But gives them an AT6+ Disrupt shot which has some interesting aplications.

Armour 6+/Sniper would be fine with me.


Would also help shift Pathfinders away from being Fire Warrior doppelgangers, but I'm not as enthused about it as seeing Sniper enter the list (There's already some Disrupt in the list), bringing something unique.

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I think Armour 6+ overcompensates for sniper. If you drop a shot, make their rail rifles AP5+ and drop their FF I think that more than balances the addition of sniper. I'd much prefer them to remain armour 5+.

With AP5+ sniper on the rail rifle, obviously something needs to be dropped to keep the points low.

I don't mind if the armour save or the carbines are dropped, it's one or the other really.

For consistency I'd say drop the save. Infantry saves are typically 5+ or 4+ anyway due to cover...

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That's my opinion too. If the stealthy Pathfinders aren't in cover of some sorts (or Assault anything), TS for them on their save. But most of the time, they'll have a similar or better save than FireWarriors. Unless you play with lots of Marshs and Scrubs.

Morgan Vening

Ok so its down to two stats sets, both leave the formation cost the same.

Type-----Speed-------Armour-------CC-------FF
Infantry--15cm---------None--------6+-------5+
Weapons
Pulse Carbines 15cm AP5+ Disrupt
Rail Rifles 30cm AP5+ Sniper

or

Type-----Speed-------Armour-------CC-------FF
Infantry--15cm----------5+---------6+-------5+
Weapons
Pulse Carbines 15cm AP5+ Disrupt
Rail Rifles 30cm AP5+/AT6+ Disrupt

Both take them away from their current incarnation as super fire warriors, both bring something a bit different to the list either Sniper for setting up nasty crossfires and taking out enemy characters or Anti tank disrupt for helping break RA vehicles without having to rely on the AX-1-0 which cant be everywhere.

I dont mind which we go for and quite like both so can I get a vote, just post Sniper or Disrupt for which type you favour, going to need at least 10 votes or I make my own mind up probably give this about a week for voting.

Are you sure you meant to completely remove (rather than downgrade to 6+) the Sniper version's save?

I prefer the Sniper version either way, fits into a different battlefield role, rather than Just-Another-Fire-Warrior.

Morgan Vening