Imperial Guard could do it (LemanRuss Company with some upgrades for example) but he had to leave off the obligatory Commissar    But still would be a highly efficient formation.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

@Rug: Why is the size relevant?

Also, even in 40K a half dozen Landspeeders could do some damage. Also, note that the fluff did not state that the LS's shot the Manta down, they chased it away. So it isn't a reflection of capabililities, but intentions. The way I am looking at this right now is that as massive as a Manta would be in relation to a Landspeeder, the Tau were not interested in seeing if they could tough it out.

Keep in mind they've been around SMs before and know that if the choice is between the Emperor or Ethereal, the Landspeeder flies up the left intake and the Manta goes down.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I do like the idea of giving the Manta a Markerlight, as it would allow interesting Drop-Shoot synergies.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'd like to point out that the Manta Burst Cannon change isn't really a change at all   . They were 30cm AP5+/AA6+ in V6.01 and they will continue to be the same going forward.

I definitely think the Manta is a 1+ activation, no matter who's in it.

I see no reason to change the Burst Cannon name or their numbers on the Manta.

I agree with TRC that the Manta is not particularly useful against WE's. It took my Manta (plus 3 other formations) 2 turns to take a Reaver down. Fortunately the enemy didn't really have anyting to hurt the Manta (Marines) whilst this was going on.

Just so the point is not missed from the V6.2 thread -
"Regarding Mantas and Fearless/fluff.
Pg60 of the 2001 Tau Codex describes the battles on Dal'yth Prime. Mantas were used to counter the Imperial titans of Legio Thanataris eventually stalling their advance. Thats sounds like a pretty fearless thing to do...   "

The Tau may have had other reasons for not fighting the Landspeeders. Attacking a retreating enemy might well make that enemy less open to negotiation at a later date (the Tau always seem to have an eye on expansion down the track).

I like the idea of a Markerlight and/or Fearless on the Manta but I really don't want to see it's points increase. If one or both of those abilities can make the Manta (with it's present stats) worth 700pts then I'm happy.

I'd like to be able to take a Supreme Commander upgrade on the Manta aswell (for 100pts). It does mean that the Tau have a lot of eggs in one basket and could make for some interesting situations. Would the SC allow a re-roll if he starts off the table (from memory - no)?

Honda - It'll be good when you've used it a couple of times to see what you think of this beastie.

Cheers.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

I personally would rather leave the ML off the manta, as it promotes use of the transport capacity to carry ML enabled formations inside it. That's synergy.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

It can hide now - remember it is merely popped up, so if it is closer to terrain than the firer they can't see each other.



The Manta has a unique ability in that it can planetfall. That means it doesn't have to appear until the end of turn 1 and it starts in an excellent position. Indeed I've never used it when I don't have the option to planetfall. Toss in the 2 lance strikes from the hero and you can seriously damage anything that can hurt it (like shadowswords) as you touch down.



I guess that its a spacecraft operating in atmosphere trying to cope with a set of stresses it wasn't primarily designed for? If you think it needs fearless to be viable on the ground does it need it when planetfalling and getting virtually 2 guaranteed rounds of fire?

Incidentally I don't see much 'synergy' in having to carry its own markerlights in the transport bay. That just seems like an odd upgrade (add 150/300 points for 6/12 tetra).

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I'd have to say that as the Manta is (and seems to always have been) a transport, it is obviously designed to operate in an atmosphere.

We should not handicap it for doing something it seems designed to do.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

@TRC



Actually, I would strongly disagree with this statement. The best weapon for dealing with a tank is another tank, JMO and based on US Army operation theory.

However, we can take that discussion to a WWII thread .



I strongly agree with this statement. I don’t want the Manta to become the dominant choice for the list, but I would like it to be a viable option and it’s place in the list to be well thought out.



Again, agree strongly.



So the bottom line here is that in a 3K game, if you Planetfall, the Hero and the Manta are all you’ll be able to afford. Now, given that you can add a reasonable amount of AA to cover your backfield, I think the list is Ok with that option. You’d obviously ought to be close to or below the normal level of activations assuming that you didn’t run with a bunch of Recon formations, so that should provide some level of balance to the Manta.


@Onyx


And this is a real problem to me. In the Damocles campaign (as you point out in your other quote), the Manta’s were brought in specifically to address the problems the Tau were having with Imperial monster war engines. Now, the fluff does not tell us exactly how they (war engines) were handled, so we have some freedom to determine the solution, but it is very clear, at least to me, that they were the answer.

We need to keep that in mind as we derive the solution.



Don’t worry, I had not ignored your original posting, but I do want to say that doesn’t necessarily define Fearless to me. The Tau were desperate (and NO, I am not going to make a special rule called Desperate), which caused them to take extraordinary actions to stem the Imperial advances, but I don’t see that as being a clear definition of Fearless.

So, let’s just say that whether or not the Manta becomes Fearless, will more than likely come down to balance factors vs. clearly defined fluff support. At this time I do not see a clear justification for Fearless other than for balance.




Understood. There could be a myriad number of reasons, all contained within the head of the author. Unfortunately, it is very difficult sometimes to infer intentions based on actual observations, so let’s just identify Fearless or not as an issue that needs to be resolved.




Yes, well that is the task before us, isn’t it.



So short answer is “noâ€Â

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

You have that backwards.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

You then would have been as surprised as the Americans were when they got to France. The doctrine may have been such, but the reality was quite different. The Russians kept with the doctrine of tanks being an exploitation weapon. But yes off to the WWII thread.



Ignore it. Its just typical GW fluff speak. In Epic the quite often worse thing to deal with another Titan is a Titan. Both Imperial and Ork machines are far worse than the infantry and tank options. Indeed this is probably deliberate - as WE are optional, taking something that is designed to counter something that might not turn up is of questionable benifit. The Warlock gets away with it because it has a BP weapon.

But saying that currently the drop manta is very good at taking out titans. You have allied units hit shields then drop in, hitting with your ion arrays and between the hero and manta 3 multi DC attacks.