it's more true to the Tau "doctrine".

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

i don't like the sound of where this is headed. every army in 40k is allowed different weapontry. what is reflected in EA stats are the average of what each of those 40k formations would have. if we started allowing tau all this flexability that other armies are not then that would be a great advantage to the tau.
if this was to be represented it should be done with caution. for example, allowing FWs the pathfinder upgrade for almost the same points as a separate pathfinder formation. most people would rather pay slightly more for an extra activation. but if you were intending to have a formation that could try and sit on an objective or whatever it might be attractive to have the ML ability.
i actually like not having all of the upgrades, as in E&Cs list. it forces you to build and army and not a bunch of independent formations.

Maybe this thread helps:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....calypse

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Yes, it does, but please note that I said "more mobile than almost anyone else."  The only army that should be able to outmaneuver the Tau in Epic should be the Eldar (oh, and the Marine Air Assault).  The difference between the two armies is in how they shatter the point:  Eldar will Engage in CC and FF, while Tau have to do it by shooting from a farther range.

Eldar in 40k are actually a bit less mobile than Tau, although the Falcon's transport capacity helps make up for that by transporting small Aspect squads.  Both Eldar Jetbikes and Tau Crisis suits have the same extra movement, but jetbikes have a faster base move (12" vs. 6").

Guardian formations *must* have a weapons platform now, so are limited to foot-only (IIRC, been a while since I've looked at the Eldar codex), and the only other 'Troops' choice is Dire Avengers.  If you take Guardians, you're already committed to fighting a (partly) defensive battle.  Tau Firewarriors don't have that limitation, and conversely are *most* effective when transported in a Devilfish (FW+'Warfish' is over 250 points per squad, not less than 200 for FW+ base DFish).  

Basically, Eldar are most effective when Aspects take the fight to the enemy, while Guardians hold; but the Tau are most effective when the entire army takes the fight to the enemy, with only the Broadsides holding their position.

The biggest difference is in how the two armies work together:
Eldar have highly-specialized troops that need to work together to cover each other's weaknesses.  You need to shoot the choppy aspects, and chop the shooty aspects to beat Eldar.  

Tau have specializable troops that work together to increase their offensive potential.  Tau units can't really cover each other's weaknesses, as all Tau have the same weakness.  The Tau have to rely on their Aux to cover the CC weakness (oh, wait, even the Tau Aux are artificially weak in FF/CC).

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

Guardian formations *must* have a weapons platform now, so are limited to foot-only (IIRC, been a while since I've looked at the Eldar codex),

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

The Weapon Platform does't prevent them from being transported in a Serpent or Falcon.

Also alot of Eldar infantry have Fleet which allows them, to assault after running.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

I'm going to make one comment.

Are we really trying to make a larger scale game of 40K or a true battilion/brigade level wargame based in the warhammer 40k universe?

How things are done in the platoon/company level world of 40K may not translate directly into stats in Epic. We know a lot of abstraction is already incorportated into the game.

Clearly some of the arguement comes from 40ks company level point blank slaughterfest compared to Epics Brigade style moving around. I think its hard to draw any extrapolations from it - indeed the marine army plays nothing like its 40k counterpart.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Everything I try and do with the Tau tends to be based on the background (mostly the Codex, and Imperial Armour 3, as that's about all there is!), 40k rules are absolutely the last resort and are only used for stats, not the style of how the army plays.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

40k rules are absolutely the last resort and are only used for stats, not the style of how the army plays.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Uh, guys?  Epic isn't brigades of troops moving around, at least not this edition.  Epic really *is* a bigger version of 40k, roughly the same size as most 'Apocalypse' battles, since JJ decided that each model represents one individual.

Examples:  
1)  A full company of Dark Angels (107 Marines), including 9 Rhinos, is 3000 points in 40k.  That's the same as two Tactical Formations, one Assault, and one Devastator.  The 6000 point Apocalypse version of that adds a THawk, some Vindicators (or Predators), a flight of 5 Land Speeders, some Terminators, and Land Raiders, and the Company Captain and Chaplain.  That's (325+300+175+250+200+300+200+325+400+100+50=)  2625 E:A points, 9 formations.  Too big to play under the 40k rules, but fine for Epic.  Just realized that I don't have any Hunters in the example, though.

2) Guard:  One E:A infantry 'company' is really the size of one maxed-out 40k PLATOON, so a minimum of 2 Infantry Companies, 2 Tank Squadrons, Hellhounds, two Sentinel squadrons, an Artillery battery, and a stormtrooper platoon with Valks.  (250+250+200+200+150+100+100+250+350=) 1850 points already.  Mechanize and upgrade to the Regimental HQ, that's another 400 points, upgrade the two tank platoons to a tank company increases that by 250 points, and add some flak for 150.  2650 points, and it needs some air support.  2 fighter pairs and you're at 2950 (with 10 or 11 Activations).

3) A single Tau Cadre is potentially 12-15 Crisis suits, 72 Fire Warriors with 6 Devilfish, 16 Pathfinders with 2 Devilfish, a flight of  up to 5 Piranhas, 6 Broadsides, and a Skyray, all for about 3500 40k points.  In Epic terms, that's a Crisis formation, one FW+FW+DFish+Skyray formation, a Pathfinder SG, a Recon SG, and a Broadside SG.  (250+525+175+150+300=) 1400 E:A points already.  If you put two Cadres on the table and add a Supreme Commander and regular Commander, you're at the standard 3000 point E:A game (with 10 activations).

do I need to keep going with this example?
=====

As far as the Eldar go, I think that allowing weapons platforms (as opposed to the bigger support platforms) inside vehicles was one of the improvements made in the 4e Eldar Codex.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

Just so you know, and sorry for the "off topic", but this has been addressed (read: added) in the NetEA recommended changes for Eldar.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Sorry, not brigade, I meant battalion (platoon - company - battalion - regiment)!

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

But E:A is still really using *platoons* as the maneuver element (particularly the Tau, Eldar, and Marine lists), so you're not more than the battalion CO, and really closer to the Company CO.  We're talking about a game built on a reinforced company as your tabletop force, up to a battalion.  That's the same command scale as Flames of War, and only one step up from 40k.

Look at it this way:  
As a Real-Life™ Company Commander, you give orders to your platoons, and know roughly where the individual squads are (as in, 'I sent 3rd platoon over behind that farmhouse to set up a hasty ambush, so 1st squad *should* be on the short arm of the L, while second and third squads are on the long arm.  Weapons will be split between the two arms.)  You have no clue where Pvt. Jones is inside that formation.  

A Battalion commander would tell his companies to attack Hill123, and would know that Alpha Company's 3rd platoon is going to be on the western flank, but doesn't know how the squads are arranged.  

E:A is somewhere between those two examples, so why are we trying to push this to a higher level?

As long as Epic is a 1:1 model:individual representation, it simply *can't* get too much bigger than a Battalion on the table.  As it is, the player is going to run into trouble if he tries to run more than 12 maneuver elements (few people can really handle more than 7 subordinates).  There's simply too many options for most people to process (at least quickly).

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

i don't mean to sound rude but.... who cares?
not only is this off topic but has absolutely nothing to do w/ the game. meaning that only those of us that were in the military (or has knowledge of military organization) are going to get anything out of it being squad, platoon, or company sized. anyone else though are they really going to care?
it's been said many times, this is a game, not a simulation.