Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

[Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
Chroma
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (clausewitz @ 07 Jul. 2009, 17:31 )

Well he did start the thread immediately below this, where he outlined his concerns in general.
Thread

Yeah, but I didn't see many "point concerns" listed there...

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dobbsy
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:02 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yeah, but I didn't see many "point concerns" listed there

I hadn't actually finished that post - I forgot I had posted it due to a bit of a lack of interest with the Tau lately. But did I truly have to list every single cost concern?
The whole army should be cheaper with the change in the GM/ML system. We seemed to just change the rule and leave almost everything the same price. In fact, didn't the Scorpionfish go up in price? Could have sworn it was 225 once upon a time.

Changing the initiative on a unit that has been 2+ for ages and works fairly well, just because it seems odd in some respects, doesn't sit well with me. We argued about Broadsides for how long in the past..? Now they're at a point that seems fairly balanced, they all of sudden need a change?? I smell circular debate hovering somewhere near again. I'm very sensitive to costs in this list. 25-50 points is a big change in this list due to costs of other formations.

Sorry it's just how I feel. If they get changed to 1+, so be it. I just don't support a price increase. Maybe if other formations come down in price I'll support it.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Vaaish
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:08 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
I'd like to submit that it's the crisis suits that have the wrong stat in epic, not the Stealth and Broadsides. Even with the Shas'vre a crisis/broadside team can only have LD8 same as a standard firewarrior team with a Shas'ui. In fact the only stat differences has to do with their durability and close combat ability, not their ability to carry out orders. The more experienced nature of the crisis/broadside pilots is expressed by the fact that they have the battlesuits more than any stat change. The only time I could see the bump in initiative as being supported is a firewarrior cadre with an ethereal or a battlesuit cadre with a Shas'o, both of which are LD10.  Given the scope of epic, I don't think that it is a hard stretch for all firewarrior teams to include the shas'ui giving tau units except those with shas'o or ethereal commanders 2+ initiative.




_________________
-Vaaish
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
tneva82
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm
Posts: 606
Quote: (Vaaish @ 09 Jul. 2009, 14:08 )

I'd like to submit that it's the crisis suits that have the wrong stat in epic, not the Stealth and Broadsides. Even with the Shas'vre a crisis/broadside team can only have LD8 same as a standard firewarrior team with a Shas'ui. In fact the only stat differences has to do with their durability and close combat ability, not their ability to carry out orders. The more experienced nature of the crisis/broadside pilots is expressed by the fact that they have the battlesuits more than any stat change. The only time I could see the bump in initiative as being supported is a firewarrior cadre with an ethereal or a battlesuit cadre with a Shas'o, both of which are LD10.  Given the scope of epic, I don't think that it is a hard stretch for all firewarrior teams to include the shas'ui giving tau units except those with shas'o or ethereal commanders 2+ initiative.

And LD is same as initiave? Nothing related to...you know. Initiave? Tactical acutemen? Ability to exploit advantage where it lays?

40k comparisons in epic are just plain stupid. Only background should be concerned and 40k rules should go to hell as far as epic goes.

_________________
www.tneva.net
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Vaaish
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:16 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
And LD is same as initiave? Nothing related to...you know. Initiave? Tactical acutemen? Ability to exploit advantage where it lays?


Actually, 40k initiative is related to attack order in Close combat alone and LD is related to how well your troops stay on the field and do what you want, so no 40k Initiative is nothing at all related to epic Initiative. I would say your ability to LEAD encompasses your tactical ability hence the LD value is a more or less comparable attribute to Epic Initiative.


40k comparisons in epic are just plain stupid. Only background should be concerned and 40k rules should go to hell as far as epic goes.
40k stats are used as inspiration for epic, hence my referencing them.




_________________
-Vaaish
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Honda
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
I'm not seeing a strong argument either way for this proposal. Also keep in mind that some inconsistencies will exist in a list to emphasize an AC's perception or desire.

I'm not saying no (at least on Stealths), but I'm not seeing any real justification at this time.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Honda @ 22 Jul. 2009, 18:58 )

I'm not seeing a strong argument either way for this proposal. Also keep in mind that some inconsistencies will exist in a list to emphasize an AC's perception or desire.

.

Could you elaborate on this "AC's perception or desire"?

I'm not saying no (at least on Stealths), but I'm not seeing any real justification at this time

So then what is the justification of the Crisis Suits being 1+?  Is it just "that's the way they've always been"?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:49 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
If the AP Guided Missiles were removed (as they should be IMO), increasing these critical formation types to initiative 1+ could be seen to be a good thing.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Honda
 Post subject: [Formations] Are Stealth and Broadsides "Elite"?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:06 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
Could you elaborate on this "AC's perception or desire"?


Well, I'm a little surprised that I have to spell this out. An AC has some discretion on how mechanisms follow fluff.

To use another list as an example, I have a very clear idea of how I want the Elysians to behave. I am consistent in my approach to the fluff, if not in the exact execution.

In fewer words, it is nothing more than wiggle room in your design.

So then what is the justification of the Crisis Suits being 1+?  Is it just "that's the way they've always been"?

I would have to go back and re-read all those old threads to determine what the justification was. I'm not seeing this as broken.

Should the Stealths be +1 as well? Hard to say. Nobody is bringing up reasons why they should other than it would be "nice" or "consistent". That isn't a good enough reason for me to consider a change. Stealths work fairly well now. Giving them a +1 would counter the risk associated with deep striking them in. I like to field Stealths and would love to see them as Init +1 from a gamers perspective, I just don't see the justification for doing that from the designers perspective.

It would be a mistake to think that everything involved with designing a list is set and dried, consistent to a fault, and always clear. List design is an art, not a science as because of that, will include elements that are subjective.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net