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[Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?

 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:49 pm 
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I think you're all overlooking the fact that you get flexibility with the Ion head. You can still do both tasks (AT/AP 4+) well. The rail head hits armour hard but lacks AP in comparison to the Ion head. When I want to tailor my list for utility I like Ion heads. On sustain it hits just as hard as a Rail-head. I would still be taking both in my lists if I wasn't trying to find a use for FWs.

I suggested dropping the seeker from the Rail-head a while back and making it WYSIWYG as they come with burst cannons in the pack. This would definitely make them different beasts


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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:27 pm 
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So, your solution is 2 different datasheets?

One would be:
Railhead
AV, 25cm, 4+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Railgun: 75cm AP5+/AT3+
2x Burst Cannons: 15cm AP5+
Notes: Skimmer


And the other would be:
Ionhead
AV, 25cm, 4+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Ion Cannon:  60cm AP4+/AT4+ [LitS thought: AP3+/AT5+ ]
Seeker Missiles: 90cm AT5+ Guided Missiles
Smart Missile System:  30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
Notes: Skimmer

Hrmmm...  Well, I never did bother putting Seekers on Railheads in 40k, but honestly, AT4+ is *way* overstating the capabilities of an Ion Cannon.  It's only Strength 7, on par with an autocannon, with 50% more shots.  That's AT6, maybe AT5+ (twin-linked autocannons are AT5+).  However, due to the high Strength and AP value, an Ion cannon is an excellent MEq (Marine Equivalent, Toughness 4 or 5 w/ a 3+ save) removal tool.  I'm still not entirely sure that AP3+ is justified (assault cannon has more shots, still wounds on a 2+, but grants that 3+ save), but I think reversing the to-hit numbers (in addition to losing the Seeker shot on the Railheads) might work:
Ion Cannon: 60cm AP3+/AT5+
Railgun: 75cm AP5+/AT3+

Is a 90cm AT5+ Guided shot and a 60cm AT5+ shot the equal of a 75cm AT3+?  Only testing will tell (guided missiles require too many variables to math-hammer).

You take an Ionhead in 40k to kill heavy infantry like Space Marines and Necrons.  You take Broadsides to kill tanks.  It's a different game.  Obviously, a long-range AT shot is worth more here, especially when there's a LOT of AP fire from the infantry in the list. Right now, I wouldn't bother taking the Ionhead.

It's worth testing, at least.  It'd be a shame to have the models and not use them because the rules suck...

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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:42 pm 
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I am all for a points difference between the two.  They points and capabilities in 40k are fairly different, so I think that could translate to EpicA as well.

I like NealHunt's idea of 25 points for groups of 3, but it is presently not compatible with the support cadre.  

That said... I doubt that the difference in capability is quite that much.  That's ~15% price difference, which equates to about a 30% difference in firepower for the unit as a whole.  The Railgun is better but even taking into account the AP-o-plenty context that's stretching it.


So why not something like:

Ion Cannon 60cm AP4+/AT5+  (which I think is a good translation of the 40k stats)

and

Railgun  75cm  AP5+
                      or  AT4+ Lance

(Which would then adjust the Broadside to AT3+ Lance)

Anyway, I think with those stats, you bring them both closer to their equivalent 40k effectiveness and make Railgun version strong enough to justify a points increase for it.

So, why Lance you say?  Well, it has to do with the AP1 ability the Railgun has in 40k.  That translates into just how good the Railgun is at taking out the most heavily armored targets in 40k like Land Raiders and Russes.  Which are the units with RA in Epic.  I have seen it Mathhammered that the Railgun is somewhat better at killing low armored targets than a Lascannon, but the difference really shows up at the higher armour values.  Which, is why I think Lance is a very appropriate ability for the Railgun.

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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:09 am 
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I'd far rather see a points change than nerf the RailHead stats (and had suggested this before the last list was released).
I see no point in removing the Seeker or SMS from the RailHead. Why would the Tau do this?

I'd leave the RailHead out of this and concentrate on IonHeads stats and price to make them more usable (I agree that Lance would be good for RailGuns and I proposed it a while back aswell but this thread is about making IonHeads usable).

Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre    315 points
6 Ion Cannon Hammerhead Gunships
-any number of Hammerhead Gunships may replace their Ion Cannons with Railcannons for +10 points each


I quite like this idea (and nealhunt's suggestion aswell). Maybe the Support formation could change to 3 tanks and if there is a change to upgrades (as per Chroma's thread HERE) it could work well.
315 is an intersesting number though and would be a precident for a Tau formation cost.

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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:45 am 
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FYI my Weapons-Transfer-System comes up with the following stats:

Railgun: 75cm AP5+/AT5+ with Lance on the AT-Shot

Ion Cannon: 30cm AP4+/AT6+

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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:40 am 
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Lance is a "boring" ability, much like Ignore Cover. Having those discourages interaction between formations.

I much prefer having to engineer Crossfires and then leveraging my good AT to-hit values. This makes for interesting play.

(Also, I don't even know anything about how the weapons are modelled in some other game; all I care about is Epic.)


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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:16 pm 
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No Chance of giving it AA back?

No.

Ok then  :vo

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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Asaura, I am not sure I see how having Lance, Ignore Cover, Disrupt, or anything else really makes Crossfires less useful.  Those abilities are nice and give some flavor to the weapons, but Crossfire still rocks.

In fact it is the coordination and 'stacking' of something like Lance and Crossfire that to me is interesting.  Like how can I get the most out of each activation.


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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:32 pm 
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The railgun is not a lance weapon. lance should be kept as a flavorful rule for weapons that are background-wise supposed to be lance weapons. AP 1 is frankly closer to MW than to lance anyway.

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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:57 pm 
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*sigh* And herei wish MW wouldn`t universally hit Infantry as good as Vehicles....
The solid shot (AT) would justify the MW ability, but not the submunition (AP).

But then...the Multi-melta is already a MW but at over half it's range it is even worse than a Lascannon against Vehicles but as effective against Infantry (so shouldn't affect Infantry in Epic...).

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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:16 pm 
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Is there any reason the submunition shot NEED be represented in Epic?

Can the railgun not just be straight AT3+?


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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:21 pm 
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Sure it can.
I like this because it will emphasise the distinction between Railgun = AT, IonCannon = AP.
It's like Predator Annihilator and Predator Destructor.




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 Post subject: [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:08 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 06 Mar. 2009, 22:57 )

*sigh* And herei wish MW wouldn`t universally hit Infantry as good as Vehicles....
The solid shot (AT) would justify the MW ability, but not the submunition (AP).

I think some unit datasheets do have MW ability on AT weapons (e.g. it says AT4+, Macro Weapon not just MW4+). I just can't name any examples ATM but I have definitely seen that somewhere.

Could have been a typo, of course.


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