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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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(Onyx @ Jun. 09 2008,06:15)
QUOTE I'm sorry but that is not a Tau army.
That's some kind of made up army with flying Titans and missile barges.
E&C - That comes across as a very arrogant statement mate.
Manta's are flying Titans and you don't seem to have any issue with them.
Indeed, but they're the exception that proves the rule, and that's okay because they're plastered all over GW publications.
Having the Moray and the Scorpionfish as indespensable components of the SG list is simply not in accordance with the fluff ; You can't build a serious competative list without one or the other, and the Tau just aren't supposed to operate like that.
Tau armies are composed of Fire Warriors, with battlesuits, tanks and Mantas in support.
As to arrogance, I don't think I'm guilty of that on this point; Tau armies are not composed only of tanks and battlesuits and superheavy tanks... that's not a typical Tau army, that's something entirely new.
The fact that that style of list is also the most powerful, and the most irritating to play against (See Zombocom's quote below) does not help.
Indeed, reading Jstr19's post would seem to indicate that they will be used just about every game....
What was that about the Moray/ScorpionFish (so called) crutch?
The SG list doesn't work properly without them.
Here's a quote from Zombocom from page 1 of this thread:
"Playing against the SG Tau list is always irritating, similar to playing against a gunline in warhammer fantasy. If I can make it to his lines before he wipes me out, I win, if not I lose. Not much in the way of tactics, not much in the way of fun.
The FW list, by virtue of no core tank companies, smaller formaton sizes, more fragile suits and no crutch units like the Moray, leads to a more MSU army that works with varied units using movement and mutual support, not just as a tank/suit/superheavy skimmer gunline."
Does the list have an even win / loss ratio in some gaming circles? Yeah maybe.
Is the SG list more 'irritating' to play against than the FW list? Yeah, we've decided that its style of play is 'irritating', and that's why we're now using the FW list for our gaming.
The Morays and Scorpionfish and whathaveyou are almost irrelevant to that fact, indeed with careful steps they could probably be integrated into the FW list's structure... but I fear you'd quickly find that they were once again indespensable in that list too, and they'd change the nature of the FW list so that it too became 'irritating' in nature.
Tau:
Stand-off.
Blast-away (Can't block LOS to a Moray or Scorpionfish!).
Did the Tau kill everything? If yes then Tau win.
Did a few enemies survive to reach the Tau gunline and chop it down in Engagements? If yes then Tau lose.
Every single game.
The FW list plays different to that.
Your agument seems to be a philasophical one - It doesn't exist in the books in front of me so NO-ONE else should be able to use them (and yes, I know that you know a lot of the fluff and even know some of the people in FW and I note that your later post seem to indicate an acceptance of these units in seperate lists). If you don't want to use these (so called) unofficial/overpowered units then don't use them. Why should I have to stop using them because you don't like them (or find them underpriced)? My opponents are rising to the challenge and still enjoy playing against them, it makes for a very different game (and this is not a bad thing Zombocom).
My argument is only partially philosophical.
Yes I have issue with making up units wholesale, especially if they then go on to become essential to every Tau army list, but I recognize that SG's mission statement involved adding a unit or two to every new army it developed.
Heck, I've added the Ordinatus Minoris to the Skitarii army, a unit that has only featured (Albeit very prominently) in one book by the Black Library (Although that is admittedly more prominently featuring than any of the new Tau vehicles, some of which are only alluded to in general terms in the fluff, and some of which don't even exist as allusions outside of this list).
So no, I don't have issue with adding units to the army list, as long as they fit the list and don't change the very nature of how the game is played.
Problem is, both the Scorpionfish and the Moray (Plus the list structure that focuses on larger base formations) change the Tau army from one of manuever to one of a static gunline.
And to paraphrase Zombocom, gunlines may well be made objectively balanced but they're also very irritating.
As to how many people at FW/GW I know, I'd rather not say (As frankly I don't want to stoop to saying 'Well I was talking with xxx last week and he said............. you'll find me publically quoting people who were on the record, or not at all. I'll win debates on my own, or not at all.').
I have little problem with point adjustments (as TRC mentioned above) and I believe this is the soloution to the problem.
Well, we've given up waiting for an ajustment to make them balanced, so we've moved to the FW army list, which is (At least currently) more fun to play against (And with, according to Jstr19), once you fix the typos and one or two oddities.
Powerful armies tend to have lower activations to compensate for their abilities. Increasing the cost of certain units would achieve this goal (rather that dropping them because we don't like them or can't figure out how to beat them with our usual tactics...
I've played more games against the Tau than any other experimental army ; It's not a matter of play style, it's the pure fact that the SG Tau list is overpowered when placed in the hands of a superlatively skilled gamer (Jstr19) against any army except Necrons.
I can't beat them without specifically tooling up an army list to fight them... and that's not balanced.
even though there are those who beat Tau often - Speak to Dobbsy about that, or maybe we could've if he hadn't got completely fed up with all the whinging that goes on in the Tau forum).
Well, we've gotten fed up too, that's why we're no longer using the SG list...
... I don't actually expect any particularly ground-shaking changes to come from this debate. I expect that the SG Tau list will remain pretty much the same as it is now. Frankly I think your Morays and Scorpionfish and the rest are quite safe from harm.
I don't think they'll be dropped from the SG list, and I don't think we'll see a two-list split (Mechanised 'classic' Tau / Armoured & SHT Tau).
I'm just explaining our reasons for using the FW list, as asked to by CS.
I've always wanted to use the list found here as I believe that they are as close to tournament ready lists as are available (outside the official book army lists) but if your suggested changes to the list were to be accepted then I would have to stop using the latest list which would be a pity (especially when I don't think there is much wrong with the exising list - just a few minor tweaks {no removal of units} and I think it would play much more competativly).
Straight off the page the SG list is more balanced, there's no denying that, even if it is overpowered.
A DC 9 Bomber with 8x AA shots is literally unkillable, after all, and 2 Broadside suits in a formation on their own for a pittance of points is also silly.
But they're either typos or plain old balance mistakes ; Once the list was patched (I think Jstr applied about 6 changes) it played fine and was fun for both sides.
From this point on we'll probably be using a FW-derrived army list in our gaming circle.
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